[nagdu] "Consumer"

Wed Jul 17 14:53:11 UTC 2013

Marion,
I'm gong by Spanish, where padron means owner.  I don't speak Latin, but I'm 
sure the Latin word led to the Spanish.  And, for many centuries, artists 
and poets had patrons--the rich people who kept them housed and fed, in 
return for their work. Which is where we get "patron of the arts", one who 
supports artistic endeavors, usually with money.
I bet patronizing comes from acting like an owner or superior--acting like a 
patron.
Tracy, an old linguistics major

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "National Association of Guide Dog Users" <blind411 at verizon.net>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2013 7:06 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] "Consumer"

> Tracy,
> Can you provide us with some etymology of the word "patron"? It
> would certainly help, as I consider a patron as one who patronizes and I
> certainly no more wish to be patronizing as to eat my dog! (grin)
>
> Marion
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tracy Carcione
> Sent: Sunday, July 14, 2013 11:10 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] "Consumer"
>
> I like patron, though it sounds odd at first.  Patron is related
> linguistically to owner, and I do have an ownership stake in my school.
> Tracy
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Darla Rogers" <djrogers0628 at gmail.com>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, July 12, 2013 6:43 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] "Consumer"
>
>
>> What about Patron or participant?
>> Darla & Handsome Huck
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Ray
>> Sent: Friday, July 12, 2013 2:34 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] "Consumer"
>>
>> Well, Tracy, methinks you won't buck this trend for a long, long time. It
>> has come to be entrenched. I don't like it either, but I prefer it to
>> patient; client works for me, but client isn't general enough. Consumer 
>> is
>> the same as user, though my feeling about it was similar to yours. There
>> might not be a totally acceptable term for it, but I actually don't mind
>> it
>> as long as I continue to have a name. Once I was in our library and
>> someone
>> with whom I was speaking got a call. She said she would get back to them
>> but
>> she was with a consumer. I did think I would have preferred it if she had
>> said someone is at my desk.
>>
>> Cindy Lou
>>
>> On Jul 12, 2013, at 1:41 PM, "Tracy Carcione" <carcione at access.net> 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Marion.
>>> The NFB may call itself a consumer organization, but I usually call it
>>> a civil rights organization.  I do not care for being called a
>>> "consumer" in any context.  Somehow, I have been demoted from
>>> respected citizen, or even valued customer, to a mere consumer, and I
>>> don't like it.  And, when it comes to being called a "guide dog
>>> consumer", I can't help picturing myself with a knife and fork, sitting
>> down to a plate of dog.  Yuk!
>>> I prefer customer, client, patron, student, graduate, alumna--any of
>>> those are preferrable to "consumer" in my book.
>>> I realize this may go against what has become common usage, but, as I
>>> said, I don't like the common usage, and am doing what I can to buck
>>> the trend.
>>> Tracy
>>>
>>>> Tracy,
>>>> I would be open to hearing more about your feelings on the term
>>>> "consumer". I have heard people express their views in terms of
>>>> consuming
>>>> (eating) guide dogs; however, that is a limited view of the term. The
>>>> NFB refers to itself as a consumer organization in the sense of the
>>>> economic definition as "a person or organization that uses a commodity
>>>> or
>> service".
>>>> From an economics point of view, consumerism is the most powerful
>>>> method of effecting change and collective consumerism exponentially
>>>> increases that power.
>>>> During our annual meeting on July 3, we heard several training
>>>> programs assert that the diversity of policies and practices between
>>>> thos available offered consumers choice. Of course, for such choice
>>>> to be effectively enacted upon, more information needs to be
>>>> available. For instance, one training program asserts they transfer
>>>> ownership after six months; however, their contract also reserves the
>>>> right to repossess the dog at any time and for any reason. I'm not
>>>> sure about anyone else, but I do not consider something that someone
>>>> else has the right to take away from me without just cause as true
>>>> ownership. When publicly asked about this provision during the NAGDU
>>>> meeting, we got no response. So much for informed choice! And what
>>>> about the practice of surprise visits? I have been advised this same
>>>> training program regularly calls consumers to advise them they are
>>>> around the corner and want to visit them within five minutes! This
>>>> training program may feel as if I am picking on them; however,
>>>> playing the victim is not very becoming when they treat blind
>>>> consumers in such a manner! Again, more on this in future articles.
>>>>
>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tracy
>>>> Carcione
>>>> Sent: Friday, July 12, 2013 9:36 AM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Quality of Training was pilot dogs traffic
>>>> checks
>>>>
>>>> Hi Marion.
>>>> I'm both a donor and a "consumer".  (Boy, do I hate that term
>>>> "consumer"!) I know that my dog enhances my life considerably.  I
>>>> think there's a fine line between expressing that truth, and the
>>>> "hero dogs leading me out of my lonely darkness", sort of thing.
>>>> It's easy for publicity/fundraising to stray over that line,
>>>> sometimes.  It annoys me a lot when it does, but I can see how it
>>>> could be tricky. I think TSE usually does a pretty good job, by
>>>> letting people talk about what the dog does for them, but it's not
>>>> perfect.
>>>> I don't think fundraising would be very effective that said something
>>>> like "I can use my dog or my cane to get where I want to go, but my
>>>> dog is helpful is some situations." I wonder what you think it should
>>>> say?  I know drippy goo when I hear it, but it can't be too blase,
>>>> either. I look forward to your articles.
>>>> Tracy
>>>>
>>>>> Dear All,
>>>>> I believe that, for the most part, all the training programs do a
>>>>> good job as it pertains to the quality of training. From my personal
>>>>> point of view, the differences I observe are with the philosophies
>>>>> of the programs and the resulting manner in which consumers are
>>>>> viewed and treated. The purpose of the Guide Dog Consumers' Bill of
>>>>> Rights is to outline certain standards the National Association of
>>>>> Guide Dog Users and the National Federation of the Blind believe to
>>>>> be dignified, respectful  treatment of blind consumers. It gives
>>>>> blind consumers considering a training program elements to consider
>>>>> when evaluating a training program. Whether a training program
>>>>> agrees with the Bill of Rights or not matters less to me than
>>>>> affording consumers a tool to measure how a training program measures
>> up.
>>>>> In a market driven economy, it is best for those who provide goods
>>>>> and/or services to listen to their consumers and meet their needs.
>>>>> As the collective voice of blind consumers, we believe it is our
>>>>> responsibility to inform the public about what we believe is a good
>>>>> service by establishing reasonable standards for measuring what
>>>>> quality training involves. The Bill of Rights is our operational
>>>>> definition of this abstract, subjective term.
>>>>> As consumers, it is our right to ask training programs how they
>>>>> measure up and our responsibility to demand they modify their
>>>>> policies, practices, and procedures to align themselves with what we
>>>>> believe is dignified treatment.
>>>>> It is my goal over the next year to publish several articles in the
>>>>> Braille Monitor and on our Harness Up! Blog on this topic. As we
>>>>> shift the paradigm of the blind from beneficiaries to consumers of
>>>>> guide dog training programs, those who raise millions of dollars
>>>>> from the public on our behalf will either need to realign their
>>>>> philosophies or accept the consequences of not doing so.
>>>>> All guide dog training programs have four stakeholders: Consumers,
>>>>> volunteers, donors, and employees. Some programs seem to consider
>>>>> the most important stakeholder to be the donor. Some of these
>>>>> programs solicit donations by telling donors how important their
>>>>> work is and, in so many words,  how the plight of the blind is made
>>>>> better by their services. Such an approach may serve the training
>>>>> program employing this tactic by making the public feel sorry for us
>>>>> and give money to improve our plight, but what does it do to us as
>>>>> blind people? How does it impact our everyday lives?
>>>>> Is
>>>>> it partly responsible for the misconceptions we face from the public
>>>>> many of us on this list have complained about? Is it partly
>>>>> responsible for our high unemployment rate? Do the ways in which we
>>>>> are portrayed by the so-called experts in the field of blindness
>>>>> have an impact on our lives? These are the sorts of questions I hope
>>>>> to address in the future in the effort to continue shifting the
>> paradigm.
>>>>> Your comments are respectfully requested!
>>>>>
>>>>> Fraternally  yours,
>>>>>
>>>>> Marion Gwizdala, President
>>>>> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc.
>>>>> National Federation of the Blind
>>>>> (813) 626-2789 (Office)
>>>>> 888-NAGDU411 (Hotline
>>>>> President at nagdu.org
>>>>> www.nagdu.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Danielle
>>>>> Antoine
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2013 1:03 AM
>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] pilot dogs traffic checks was Update: Training
>>>>> Program sat NAGDU Meeting
>>>>>
>>>>> But, could it be that they don't know or can't tell the difference
>>>>> because they have never had any other experience? Are there any
>>>>> other grads who have gone to Pilot after another program on hear? I
>>>>> will say that I've been on a few non-school specific lists and as
>>>>> stated previously they all seem happy with there training. this is
>>>>> very interesting and I don't really have much info nor have I seen
>>>>> any working teams from there so I'd like to hear more about Pilot 
>>>>> Dogs.
>>>>> that's what I've always heard though that they didn't do planned
>>>>> traffic checks. Kind of worrisome!
>>>>>
>>>>> Danielle
>>>>>
>>>>> On 7/10/13, rhonda cruz <rhondaprincess at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> hello may, keeps me safe every time we travel together,  she has
>>>>>> done many traffic  checks,  and we work hard to.
>>>>>> i feel pilot did a good job at mamatching us.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Jul 8, 2013, at 12:58 PM, Howard J. Levine wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I agree if a xchool is going to cut back on traffic checks what
>>>>>>> else are they cutting back on. You want to know how your guide dog
>>>>>>> is going ot react to problem and keep you safe.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>>>>>> National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 08, 2013 3:49 PM
>>>>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog 
>>>>>>> Users'
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] pilot dogs traffic checks was Update:
>>>>>>> Training Program sat NAGDU Meeting
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Rebecca.
>>>>>>> This may be an issue of not knowing rather than not caring. I
>>>>>>> believe traffic checks are an important part of guide dog work
>>>>>>> and, to the best of my knowledge, Pilot is the only guide dog
>>>>>>> training program that does not include them in their training! If
>>>>>>> Pilot consumers knew how important they were and that everyone
>>>>>>> else gets what they do not, perhaps they would speak up. Then
>>>>>>> again, they may be met with the same sort of irrational excuses
>>>>>>> other training programs offer us and we are expected to accept
>>>>>>> without
>> question!
>>>>>>> For instance, Pilot may assert that traffic checks are unnecessary
>>>>>>> and their consumers are expected to accept this without question.
>>>>>>> If they are not important, why does every other program put such a
>>>>>>> major emphasis on them?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>>>>> Marion
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Star
>>>>>>> Gazer
>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 08, 2013 12:03 PM
>>>>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog 
>>>>>>> Users'
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] pilot dogs traffic checks was Update:
>>>>>>> Training Program sat NAGDU Meeting
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Steve,
>>>>>>> The Pilot grads don't seem to mind this though. So why would they
>>>>>>> speak up?
>>>>>>> To them, it isn't a problem. To me, it's a deal breaker.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steven
>>>>>>> Johnson
>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2013 7:07 PM
>>>>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog 
>>>>>>> Users'
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] pilot dogs traffic checks was Update:
>>>>>>> Training Program sat NAGDU Meeting
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Deanna, you make an excellent point.  Having a controlled traffic
>>>>>>> check can help the student get prepared for what is inevitable.
>>>>>>> Whether it is a gas powered car, quiet car, bicycle, skateboard;
>>>>>>> we can begin to learn and feel how our dogs react to those
>>>>>>> situations.
>>>>>>> Sometimes they are slight, and sometimes, very apparent checks as
>>>>>>> we all know.  What would be ideal is for the Pilot grads to step
>>>>>>> up and simply make this request.  The more they hear from, the
>>>>>>> more likely they might listen, and a potential change could be made.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Steve
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Deanna
>>>>>>> Lewis
>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2013 10:43 AM
>>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>>> Users
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] pilot dogs traffic checks was Update:
>>>>>>> Training Programsat NAGDU Meeting
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am sorry, but I would rather have a trained professional driving
>>>>>>> a car and testing my dog and I, than I would to have a random
>>>>>>> stranger who is not paying attention come close to, or actually
>> hitting us.
>>>>>>> Drivers nowadays are so careless and they are always on their cell
>>>>>>> phones, texting, putting on makeup, and so forth. They just do not
>>>>>>> pay attention to pedestrians.
>>>>>>> I strongly believe that planned traffic checks are an essential
>>>>>>> part of guide dog training.
>>>>>>> Deanna and Pascal
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Darla
>>>>>>> Rogers
>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2013 11:30 AM
>>>>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog 
>>>>>>> Users'
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] pilot dogs traffic checks was Update:
>>>>>>> Training Programsat NAGDU Meeting
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dear Chantel,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That is totally ridiculous; I wouldn't want a dog who freaked out
>>>>>>> with artificial traffic checks.
>>>>>>> Darla & Handsome Huck
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chantel
>>>>>>> Cuddemi
>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2013 11:39 PM
>>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>>> Users
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] pilot dogs traffic checks was Update:
>>>>>>> Training Programsat NAGDU Meeting
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Guys,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Students and dogs were freaked out by the artificial traffic
>>>>>>> checks set up by Pilot. I wasn't aware that the dogs go through
>>>>>>> artificial traffic checks before we got them.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 7/2/13, Larry D. Keeler <lkeeler at comcast.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>> That I didn't know! I just know that between Holly and I we don't
>>>>>>>> have any probblems! She'll stop whebn cars are coming and go
>>>>>>>> around those that park in the middle of the street.
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> From: "Snow White Dove" <jlperdue3 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog 
>>>>>>>> Users"
>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2013 6:19 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] pilot dogs traffic checks was Update:
>>>>>>>> Training Programsat NAGDU Meeting
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi Ava,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Pilot dogs does traffic checks while the dogs are in their
>>>>>>>>> training period
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> with the trainers, before they get to you.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You're right though, there are plenty of opportunities for the
>>>>>>>>> dog to show
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> you it'll stop for traffic during your training itself.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hope this helps.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Jenny
>>>>>>>>> On Jul 2, 2013, at 3:16 AM, avapup.7 at gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I've heard this before, that pilot dogs doesn't do traffic 
>>>>>>>>>> checks.
>>>>>>>>>> As I am considering this program for after my Cocoa girl
>>>>>>>>>> retires I'm wondering
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> if it's maybe a difference in terminology? I mean, their dogs
>>>>>>>>>> are trained
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> to stop if a car approaches, right? Like, intelligent
>>>>>>>>>> disobedience?
>>>>>>>>>> But is it that pilot dogs doesn't set up artificial situations
>>>>>>>>>> for their students where they have a car driven by a staff
>>>>>>>>>> member to test them? I'd
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> think that in Columbus there would be plenty of real life
>>>>>>>>>> traffic checks
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> without setting them up like other schools do! Ugh, Columbus
>>>>>>>>>> traffic! Do
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I have it right or am I thinking of something different? Thanks!!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Ava and Cocoa
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 1, 2013, at 1:24 PM, rhonda cruz
>>>>>>>>>> <rhondaprincess at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> the staff at pilot are good.
>>>>>>>>>>> maybe if we got more grads from pilot they would change there
>>>>>>>>>>> minds, about going to a nfb convention, but i will never know,
>>>>>>>>>>> if i just ask.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 1, 2013, at 7:04 AM, Star Gazer wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sounds like the trainer at Pilot wasn't briefed properly
>>>>>>>>>>>> before giving
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> her
>>>>>>>>>>>> presentation.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Agree with Marsha, the folks in charge at Pilot could have
>>>>>>>>>>>> calmed her down and used it as a learning opportunity.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>>>>>>>>>>> Marsha Drenth
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, June 29, 2013 3:40 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>>>>>>>> Users
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Update: Training Programs at NAGDU
>>>>>>>>>>>> Meeting
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> marion,
>>>>>>>>>>>> When did this happen? I am assuming before you took the
>>>>>>>>>>>> presidency.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Althought there has been those members around since those
>>>>>>>>>>>> time,, before
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>>>> took the presidency, the NAGDU is certainly different from
>>>>>>>>>>>> those times
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> too.
>>>>>>>>>>>> its unfortunate that Pilot feels that way, that they feel
>>>>>>>>>>>> they can not participate. I wonder if its graduates urged
>>>>>>>>>>>> them to do so, if they would. I do feel like that is a cop-out.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Marsha drenth
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent with my IPhone
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 28, 2013, at 6:53 PM, "National Association of Guide
>>>>>>>>>>>> Dog Users"
>>>>>>>>>>>> <blind411 at verizon.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Rhonda,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pilot has not been to an NFB convention since I have been an
>>>>>>>>>>>>> officer. When I spoke with Jay Gray to invite him, he said
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pilot would
>>>>>>>>>>>> never
>>>>>>>>>>>>> attend another convention because it was his opinion one of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> his trainers
>>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>>>> embarrassed at a meeting. I don't remember the incident, but
>>>>>>>>>>>>> he said the trainer was asked about traffic checks and she
>>>>>>>>>>>>> said Pilot did not do
>>>>>>>>>>>> traffic
>>>>>>>>>>>>> checks. Apparently, the president at the time was very
>>>>>>>>>>>>> surprised and exclaimed, "You don't do traffic checks?"
>>>>>>>>>>>>> According to someone else that
>>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>>>> there, this is how it happened and a rather strong
>>>>>>>>>>>>> discussion of the importance of traffic checks followed. I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> told Mr. Gray that I felt it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> reasonable question and couldn't imagine not doing traffic
>>>>>>>>>>>>> checks while assuring him that, in spite of the fact that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> our members can be very assertive, I would never allow
>>>>>>>>>>>>> anyone to insult another nor treat anyone with disrespect or
>>>>>>>>>>>>> in an undignified manner. Pilot has still not chosen to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> attend our conventions, though!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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