[nagdu] Guide dog school that offers guide dogs to children between the ages of 11 & 17 years old.

Mon Jun 3 17:12:47 UTC 2013

You make a great point. Yes, children who apply for a guide dog should 
be evaluated in case by case.

I did not know that part of the training was with the family, TVI, and O&M.

  On 6/3/2013 6:41 AM, Laurel Wheeler wrote:
> HI all, I have to say that I respectfully disagree and I firmly believe that kids can have guide dogs and have them successfully. Before you say I'm wrong, there are a few requirements in my opinion to a kid and a guide working well, and certainly many children are not mature enough, or have insufficient support systems. First, I believe the home and school etc environment has to be extremely supportive. Second, the child, I'd be more comfortable with somebody like in high school, 14, not necessarily younger, the child has to have extremely proficient o&m skills. I would agree that a child or teen needs to have proficient use of a cain in order to get a dog, what if the dog's sick one day or something? I also strongly believe that kids should be considered for a guide dog on a very much case by case basis. I don't think blanketly every child would succeed with a dog, but it's unfair to say on the flip side that this is totally a bad idea. I know somebody who has a MIRA dog, from Canada, and a portion of the training is done with the whole family as well as home TVI and O&M. MIRA really wants the family and support community to really understand the function of the dog as not to harm the team's progress later. I really believe kids can and should be trained with guides, as I said above on a case by case basis. I believe that the whole family should be trained to understand the significance of the dog, and that a school who wants to issue a dog to a child should totally investigate their home environment etc to ensure the safety and success of the team. I honestly believed a guide would have done wonders for me in junior high and high school. My family was extremely supportive of my independence, my mother is a TVI. I had proficient cain skills and would have certainly used a guide had I had the chance to obtain one.
> Anyways, thanks if you've read it this long. I understand many of your concerns and feel that yes, they are valid ones. But in summary, I feel very strongly that we shouldn't just say no that this is a totally bad idea.
> Laurel and Stockard
> On Jun 3, 2013, at 10:14 AM, Ann Edie wrote:
>
>> Hi, Darla,
>>
>> I am wondering what "couple of schools that have sprung up to train guide
>> horses" you are referring to.  I know of only one "school" or program,
>> actually, which has ever been formed to train guide horses, and that
>> program, like all other guide animal training programs, depends on funding
>> provided by donations from members of the public.  The programs, therefore,
>> put out lots of publicity, everything from little articles in local
>> newspapers when a new guide team graduates and returns home to the
>> community, to slick public service announcements, "educational" videos, high
>> profile fundraising galas, and public events like walks and graduations,
>> that get their names and their cute puppies or tiny horses out there before
>> the public eye, and bring donation dollars into their coffers.  Like the
>> guide dog training programs, the one guide horse training program of which I
>> am aware, is a legally-formed not-for-profit organization and operates
>> within the legal framework for such organizations.  I haven't heard of that
>> organization, or any organization connected with the training of miniature
>> horse guides, being shut down or having its principle officers arrested for
>> fraud or other violations of law, (and believe me, a certain national guide
>> dog users' organization did its best to do this,)which is more than can be
>> said of guide and service dog training programs in at least a couple of
>> instances.  (Wasn't there just the other day an article about a guy being
>> accused of fraud by the Attorney General of my own State of NY for falsely
>> claiming to provide trained service dogs? )
>>
>> As for being "really out for a publicity ride", you or I may not like the
>> tenor of the publicity put out by a particular program, whether that program
>> be dedicated to providing dogs or horses to blind people for mobility
>> purposes, but where is the evidence that the tail of publicity is wagging
>> the dog of providing a valuable service in the case of the guide horse
>> organization, more than in the cases of the guide dog training programs?
>>
>> In the interest of transparency, and for the benefit of those who may not
>> know me and my history with guide animals, let me hasten to state that I am
>> at present a highly-satisfied guide horse owner, and that in the past I have
>> received and worked with three guide dogs.  My guide dogs were from 2
>> well-established training programs, both of which put out lots of publicity
>> of various types.  My miniature horse guide was privately purchased and
>> privately trained.  I am not, and never have been ,associated with any guide
>> horse training program. I have criticized some of the specific publicity put
>> out by both a guide horse training program and guide dog training programs.
>> Almost all of the guide horse handlers of whom I am aware are either
>> owner-trainers or have had their miniature horse guides privately trained
>> for them, and they, like me,  do not seek publicity, although we are
>> frequently contacted by various news organizations to provide interviews to
>> satisfy the curiosity of the public.  If anything, I guess you could say
>> that media such as the NY Times and the Rachel Ray Show are "really out for
>> a publicity ride", because they do certainly take advantage of the public's
>> fascination with lovable, cuddly animals doing seemingly miraculous things
>> for disabled people, to attract the largest possible number of public
>> eyeballs to their products, for an unabashedly for-profit motive.
>>
>> As a blind person, I do not particularly like the publicity statements put
>> out by MIRA.  However, I don't find them to be that different from the
>> publicity put out by many other service animal training programs.  And I'm
>> sure that MIRA, like the other training programs, think they are providing a
>> valuable service which deserves public support.  If we think they are
>> misguided in their choice of language or imagery, or in their fundamental
>> mission, I think we can most effectively express our opinions directly to
>> the organization, rather than accusing them on an e-mail list of being
>> "really out for a publicity ride."
>>
>> The above is, naturally, just my opinion on the matter, and not meant to
>> offend in any way.  But I am curious as to what guide horse training
>> organizations you were referring to in your previous message, and how you
>> think their publicity is or was any more self-serving than that of other
>> nonprofit organizations.
>>
>> Best,
>> Ann
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Darla Rogers
>> Sent: Sunday, June 02, 2013 6:26 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide dog school that offers guide dogs to children
>> between the ages of 11 & 17 years old.
>>
>> That is probably true for someone 15 or 16, but 11, IMNHO, is too young, and
>> I think some of these schools are really out for a publicity ride as with a
>> couple of schools that have sprung up to train guide horses.
>> Darla
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sheila Leigland
>> Sent: Sunday, June 02, 2013 2:31 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide dog school that offers guide dogs to children
>> between the ages of 11 & 17 years old.
>>
>> /    I think when a person gets a dog is and should be a case by case
>> decision.
>> /
>> On 6/2/2013 12:10 PM, Ashley Coleman wrote:
>>> Hi there,
>>> I received my first guide dog at the age of 20.
>>>
>>> In response to this topic I have to say that I have heard nothing but
>>> negative from this organization. There was a student who attends the
>>> same University as myself and people were telling me how the handeler
>>> was treating the dog, and at one point I was told that that was the
>>> way the dog was supposed to be treated, and I disagree.
>>>
>>> The handeler eventually had the dog taken from themself.
>>>
>>> Ashley
>>>
>>> On 6/2/2013 12:56 PM, Rebecca Sabo wrote:
>>>> Hi all,
>>>> I got my first guide dog when I was 18.  I thought I was ready for a
>>>> guide dog at that time.  I retired the dog when I was at the Colorado
>>>> center for the blind in Colorado.  I waited a couple of years to get
>>>> another dog.  I am on my fourth dog.  I do not no of anyone who got a
>>>> dog at a young age.  You have to be ready to take care of a guide dog
>>>> .  It is like having a child.
>>>> BeckySabo
>>>> On Jun 1, 2013, at 8:39 PM, rhonda cruz <rhondaprincess at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> hi i got my dog when i was 22. years old. and it worked out good. i
>>>>> have never seen a younger person get a dog. from a program. i only
>>>>> have older friends. that have them. but i think it is up to the person.
>>>>> it is like taking care of a kid.
>>>>>
>>>>> On May 31, 2013, at 8:28 PM, Nicole Torcolini wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> First, let me say that I know someone who received a dog at a young
>>>>>> age (I cannot remember the exact age) from a Canadian organization,
>>>>>> probably the one mentioned in this article. I cannot remember the
>>>>>> whole story, but I think that, eventually, there was some sort of
>>>>>> problem with the dog, but it was the dog, and not the person. So,
>>>>>> although I agree that the cases where getting a guide dog at a
>>>>>> young age may be few, they do exist.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In general I think that it could probably be said that, as you
>>>>>> lower the age, the number of cases were getting a guide dog works
>>>>>> out well gets lower and lower. I agree that eleven is too low, but
>>>>>> I also think that sixteen is also a little to high. I think that
>>>>>> people should at least be able to be evaluated for a guide dog
>>>>>> around thirteen or fourteen. Sometimes, there can be more things
>>>>>> that need to be worked out before a person can get a dog than the
>>>>>> person thought, and having a year or two to work those out would be
>>>>>> nice.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I agree that having a dog around other people, especially kids,
>>>>>> might be hard for a child. Most children are still in elementary
>>>>>> school at age eleven, and elementary schools usually have at least
>>>>>> first graders if not kindergarteners.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The whole thing about people talking about only the dog I think is
>>>>>> not always a problem. JMHO, if someone wants to talk just about my
>>>>>> dog and nothing else, then I don't want to talk to them. I have met
>>>>>> very few people who insisted on talking about nothing but the dog,
>>>>>> and, for most of those people, I have gotten it through to them
>>>>>> that the dog is not the main concern at the moment and that there
>>>>>> are other things that need to be done.
>>>>>> Even for those people who start by talking about the dog, they do
>>>>>> not seem to mind when I change the subject; they sometimes change
>>>>>> it themselves.
>>>>>> Would this be the same for a child? I really cannot say. I think
>>>>>> that younger children may want to stick more to the topic of dogs,
>>>>>> but I think that teenagers would not so much.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I definitely agree that good O&M skills are a must before getting a
>>>>>> guide dog. That does not just include knowing how to use a cane but
>>>>>> also knowing where you are and which direction you are pointing
>>>>>> relative to your surroundings. I do see how a child might try to
>>>>>> avoid using a cane just because having a dog is cooler. No, I don't
>>>>>> necessarily like my cane, but that has nothing to do with the fact
>>>>>> that the cane means that I am blind.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't really know what to say about things not working out with
>>>>>> the family. I think that there would need to be some kind of
>>>>>> information for the family, and some way for the representatives
>>>>>> from the guide dog school to talk to the child about how things are
>>>>>> going without parents skewing the information. Sometimes, when I
>>>>>> have to keep reminding people about things about my guide dog, I
>>>>>> joke about sending them to the guide dog training just so that they
>>>>>> can learn the rules.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I do agree that responsibility for the dog can be a problem, but I
>>>>>> think that it should be considered on a case by case basis. Perhaps
>>>>>> a strongly recommended prerequisite for a child getting a guide dog
>>>>>> is that the child has to be able to take care of a family pet
>>>>>> almost independently before getting a guide dog. When I was eleven,
>>>>>> my family got a pet dog, and, although I did not do everything, I
>>>>>> could do most of the tasks for taking care of her on my own. Had
>>>>>> push come to shove, I would have found a way to do the other tasks.
>>>>>> But my parents have always encouraged my independence, so I
>>>>>> certainly see where it could be more of a problem of parents
>>>>>> wanting to help too much. Perhaps there could be some sort of
>>>>>> paperwork for the parents as well saying that the dog is the
>>>>>> responsibility of the child and the parents are not supposed to
>>>>>> help too much. I do definitely agree that this is important for a
>>>>>> good working relation with the dog, especially in the first few
>>>>>> months.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I agree that it needs to be the choice of the child to get a guide
>>>>>> dog. It most certainly was me, not my parents, who decided that I
>>>>>> would get a guide dog. They most certainly were not against it, but
>>>>>> it was my decision, and they have always been mostly supportive of
>>>>>> letting make my own personal choices.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I also agree that having a child get a guide dog because the child
>>>>>> is supposedly safer is not a valid reason for a child to get a
>>>>>> guide dog, especially if the parents expect the dog to protect the
>> child.
>>>>>> I do agree that some people are probably not mature enough at
>>>>>> thirteen or fourteen to get a guide dog, but I am sure that some do
>>>>>> exist.
>>>>>> Again, it is
>>>>>> something that needs to be considered differently for each situation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is not *horrible* to wait till you are sixteen, but I certainly
>>>>>> would have enjoyed a guide dog a little sooner than I got one. I
>>>>>> find travel that much easier and more enjoyable with a dog rather
>>>>>> than a cane.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Perhaps one way of trying to make sure that the dog was actually
>>>>>> used as a guide dog and did not just become a pet would be to have
>>>>>> stricter vision requirements for younger children as I feel that
>>>>>> younger children are more likely to use (or try to use) any
>>>>>> remaining vision that they have.
>>>>>> This gets
>>>>>> back to that a person needs to have accepted his/her blindness
>>>>>> before getting a guide dog.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I also don't like that people think that children can be more
>>>>>> independent just because they have a guide dog. There is nothing
>>>>>> that keeps a parent from reaching over and holding on to his/her
>>>>>> child if the child has a dog any more than if the child has a cane.
>>>>>> I am an adult, and people still try to hold onto and direct me when
>>>>>> I am using my dog.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Returning to the point about children having to tell people,
>>>>>> including people older than him/her, not to pet the dog, I can
>>>>>> definitely tell where this would be a problem. However, if it is
>>>>>> junior high and not elementary school, I would think that the
>>>>>> school staff could come to understand the rules, even if it had to
>>>>>> come from someone other than the child, such as a rep from the
>>>>>> guide dog school.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As a closing case, I will say that, although I reference my
>>>>>> experiences in this email, my experiences certainly are not those
>>>>>> of every blind child.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Nicole
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Deanna
>>>>>> Lewis
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, May 31, 2013 5:05 AM
>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>> Users(nagdu at nfbnet.org)
>>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] Guide dog school that offers guide dogs to
>>>>>> children between the ages of 11 & 17 years old.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What do you all think about this...
>>>>>> Deanna and Pascal
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> MIRA - The only organization in the United States dedicated to
>>>>>> providing guide dogs to blind children and youth between the ages
>>>>>> of 11-17.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> MIRA: from the Spanish "look", "to have one's sights set on", was
>>>>>> the nickname of a favorite guide dog trained by Eric St. Pierre,
>>>>>> founder of MIRA Canada. MIRA Foundation USA takes its name from its
>>>>>> collaboration with MIRA Canada, a nonprofit organization founded in
>>>>>> 1981 upon the belief that all individuals, regardless of their
>>>>>> physical challenges, should be able to set their sights on the same
>>>>>> goals as those people born without handicaps.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Today, MIRA Canada is recognized as a global leader in the
>>>>>> breeding, selection, and training of guide and service dogs. MIRA
>>>>>> USA was created in
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2008 as a legally separate entity, but with close ties to MIRA
>>>>>> Canada, where our dogs are currently trained.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Our mission is to offer blind children in the United States between
>>>>>> the ages of 11-17 the opportunity to receive guide dogs free of
>>>>>> charge, to provide targeted educational outreach to promote public
>>>>>> awareness, and, as we continue to grow, to offer support services
>>>>>> to the adult population of blind and their families.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is our experience that blind children, for the most part, are
>>>>>> highly adaptive, fiercely determined, and seek to have many of the
>>>>>> same opportunities as their sighted peers. Although a cane provides
>>>>>> an adequate degree of mobility for the blind and severely visually
>>>>>> impaired, there remain some serious limitations. For example, it is
>>>>>> impossible to navigate with a cane when there is no tactical
>>>>>> information such as what is provided by sidewalks. A child living
>>>>>> in a rural area is severely challenged by this restriction.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Furthermore, a cane tends to be isolating, whereas a dog provides a
>>>>>> social bridge to the sighted community. Not only are dogs social
>>>>>> creatures, they also provide stability and a level of protection
>>>>>> through their visual awareness training that a cane could never
>>>>>> replicate.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Finally, a guide dog provides a young blind person with a greater
>>>>>> level of self-reliance at an early age. Although a very young
>>>>>> student is not going to be out on the streets alone with their dog,
>>>>>> having the ability to navigate without holding a parent's hand is
>>>>>> crucial to developing maturity and confidence. The student's
>>>>>> freedom and mobility are especially enhanced in the school
>>>>>> environment with the assistance of a guide dog. Although there is
>>>>>> no cure for blindness, there can be hope, and we at MIRA witness it
>>>>>> every day through the service of a MIRA guide dog.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.mirausa.org/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
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