[nagdu] Guide dog school that offers guide dogs to children between the ages of 11 & 17 years old.

Mon Jun 3 18:20:48 UTC 2013

hi, ann you bring up important points. Even the nfb publishes what they 
are doing and it as an organization needs to do this and I'm a 
federationists so I'm not criticizing them.
On 6/3/2013 2:14 AM, Ann Edie wrote:
> Hi, Darla,
>
> I am wondering what "couple of schools that have sprung up to train guide
> horses" you are referring to.  I know of only one "school" or program,
> actually, which has ever been formed to train guide horses, and that
> program, like all other guide animal training programs, depends on funding
> provided by donations from members of the public.  The programs, therefore,
> put out lots of publicity, everything from little articles in local
> newspapers when a new guide team graduates and returns home to the
> community, to slick public service announcements, "educational" videos, high
> profile fundraising galas, and public events like walks and graduations,
> that get their names and their cute puppies or tiny horses out there before
> the public eye, and bring donation dollars into their coffers.  Like the
> guide dog training programs, the one guide horse training program of which I
> am aware, is a legally-formed not-for-profit organization and operates
> within the legal framework for such organizations.  I haven't heard of that
> organization, or any organization connected with the training of miniature
> horse guides, being shut down or having its principle officers arrested for
> fraud or other violations of law, (and believe me, a certain national guide
> dog users' organization did its best to do this,)which is more than can be
> said of guide and service dog training programs in at least a couple of
> instances.  (Wasn't there just the other day an article about a guy being
> accused of fraud by the Attorney General of my own State of NY for falsely
> claiming to provide trained service dogs? )
>
> As for being "really out for a publicity ride", you or I may not like the
> tenor of the publicity put out by a particular program, whether that program
> be dedicated to providing dogs or horses to blind people for mobility
> purposes, but where is the evidence that the tail of publicity is wagging
> the dog of providing a valuable service in the case of the guide horse
> organization, more than in the cases of the guide dog training programs?
>
> In the interest of transparency, and for the benefit of those who may not
> know me and my history with guide animals, let me hasten to state that I am
> at present a highly-satisfied guide horse owner, and that in the past I have
> received and worked with three guide dogs.  My guide dogs were from 2
> well-established training programs, both of which put out lots of publicity
> of various types.  My miniature horse guide was privately purchased and
> privately trained.  I am not, and never have been ,associated with any guide
> horse training program. I have criticized some of the specific publicity put
> out by both a guide horse training program and guide dog training programs.
> Almost all of the guide horse handlers of whom I am aware are either
> owner-trainers or have had their miniature horse guides privately trained
> for them, and they, like me,  do not seek publicity, although we are
> frequently contacted by various news organizations to provide interviews to
> satisfy the curiosity of the public.  If anything, I guess you could say
> that media such as the NY Times and the Rachel Ray Show are "really out for
> a publicity ride", because they do certainly take advantage of the public's
> fascination with lovable, cuddly animals doing seemingly miraculous things
> for disabled people, to attract the largest possible number of public
> eyeballs to their products, for an unabashedly for-profit motive.
>
> As a blind person, I do not particularly like the publicity statements put
> out by MIRA.  However, I don't find them to be that different from the
> publicity put out by many other service animal training programs.  And I'm
> sure that MIRA, like the other training programs, think they are providing a
> valuable service which deserves public support.  If we think they are
> misguided in their choice of language or imagery, or in their fundamental
> mission, I think we can most effectively express our opinions directly to
> the organization, rather than accusing them on an e-mail list of being
> "really out for a publicity ride."
>
> The above is, naturally, just my opinion on the matter, and not meant to
> offend in any way.  But I am curious as to what guide horse training
> organizations you were referring to in your previous message, and how you
> think their publicity is or was any more self-serving than that of other
> nonprofit organizations.
>
> Best,
> Ann
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Darla Rogers
> Sent: Sunday, June 02, 2013 6:26 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide dog school that offers guide dogs to children
> between the ages of 11 & 17 years old.
>
> That is probably true for someone 15 or 16, but 11, IMNHO, is too young, and
> I think some of these schools are really out for a publicity ride as with a
> couple of schools that have sprung up to train guide horses.
> Darla
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sheila Leigland
> Sent: Sunday, June 02, 2013 2:31 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide dog school that offers guide dogs to children
> between the ages of 11 & 17 years old.
>
> /    I think when a person gets a dog is and should be a case by case
> decision.
> /
> On 6/2/2013 12:10 PM, Ashley Coleman wrote:
>> Hi there,
>> I received my first guide dog at the age of 20.
>>
>> In response to this topic I have to say that I have heard nothing but
>> negative from this organization. There was a student who attends the
>> same University as myself and people were telling me how the handeler
>> was treating the dog, and at one point I was told that that was the
>> way the dog was supposed to be treated, and I disagree.
>>
>> The handeler eventually had the dog taken from themself.
>>
>> Ashley
>>
>>   On 6/2/2013 12:56 PM, Rebecca Sabo wrote:
>>> Hi all,
>>> I got my first guide dog when I was 18.  I thought I was ready for a
>>> guide dog at that time.  I retired the dog when I was at the Colorado
>>> center for the blind in Colorado.  I waited a couple of years to get
>>> another dog.  I am on my fourth dog.  I do not no of anyone who got a
>>> dog at a young age.  You have to be ready to take care of a guide dog
>>> .  It is like having a child.
>>> BeckySabo
>>> On Jun 1, 2013, at 8:39 PM, rhonda cruz <rhondaprincess at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> hi i got my dog when i was 22. years old. and it worked out good. i
>>>> have never seen a younger person get a dog. from a program. i only
>>>> have older friends. that have them. but i think it is up to the person.
>>>> it is like taking care of a kid.
>>>>
>>>> On May 31, 2013, at 8:28 PM, Nicole Torcolini wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> First, let me say that I know someone who received a dog at a young
>>>>> age (I cannot remember the exact age) from a Canadian organization,
>>>>> probably the one mentioned in this article. I cannot remember the
>>>>> whole story, but I think that, eventually, there was some sort of
>>>>> problem with the dog, but it was the dog, and not the person. So,
>>>>> although I agree that the cases where getting a guide dog at a
>>>>> young age may be few, they do exist.
>>>>>
>>>>> In general I think that it could probably be said that, as you
>>>>> lower the age, the number of cases were getting a guide dog works
>>>>> out well gets lower and lower. I agree that eleven is too low, but
>>>>> I also think that sixteen is also a little to high. I think that
>>>>> people should at least be able to be evaluated for a guide dog
>>>>> around thirteen or fourteen. Sometimes, there can be more things
>>>>> that need to be worked out before a person can get a dog than the
>>>>> person thought, and having a year or two to work those out would be
>>>>> nice.
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree that having a dog around other people, especially kids,
>>>>> might be hard for a child. Most children are still in elementary
>>>>> school at age eleven, and elementary schools usually have at least
>>>>> first graders if not kindergarteners.
>>>>>
>>>>> The whole thing about people talking about only the dog I think is
>>>>> not always a problem. JMHO, if someone wants to talk just about my
>>>>> dog and nothing else, then I don't want to talk to them. I have met
>>>>> very few people who insisted on talking about nothing but the dog,
>>>>> and, for most of those people, I have gotten it through to them
>>>>> that the dog is not the main concern at the moment and that there
>>>>> are other things that need to be done.
>>>>> Even for those people who start by talking about the dog, they do
>>>>> not seem to mind when I change the subject; they sometimes change
>>>>> it themselves.
>>>>> Would this be the same for a child? I really cannot say. I think
>>>>> that younger children may want to stick more to the topic of dogs,
>>>>> but I think that teenagers would not so much.
>>>>>
>>>>> I definitely agree that good O&M skills are a must before getting a
>>>>> guide dog. That does not just include knowing how to use a cane but
>>>>> also knowing where you are and which direction you are pointing
>>>>> relative to your surroundings. I do see how a child might try to
>>>>> avoid using a cane just because having a dog is cooler. No, I don't
>>>>> necessarily like my cane, but that has nothing to do with the fact
>>>>> that the cane means that I am blind.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't really know what to say about things not working out with
>>>>> the family. I think that there would need to be some kind of
>>>>> information for the family, and some way for the representatives
>>>>> from the guide dog school to talk to the child about how things are
>>>>> going without parents skewing the information. Sometimes, when I
>>>>> have to keep reminding people about things about my guide dog, I
>>>>> joke about sending them to the guide dog training just so that they
>>>>> can learn the rules.
>>>>>
>>>>> I do agree that responsibility for the dog can be a problem, but I
>>>>> think that it should be considered on a case by case basis. Perhaps
>>>>> a strongly recommended prerequisite for a child getting a guide dog
>>>>> is that the child has to be able to take care of a family pet
>>>>> almost independently before getting a guide dog. When I was eleven,
>>>>> my family got a pet dog, and, although I did not do everything, I
>>>>> could do most of the tasks for taking care of her on my own. Had
>>>>> push come to shove, I would have found a way to do the other tasks.
>>>>> But my parents have always encouraged my independence, so I
>>>>> certainly see where it could be more of a problem of parents
>>>>> wanting to help too much. Perhaps there could be some sort of
>>>>> paperwork for the parents as well saying that the dog is the
>>>>> responsibility of the child and the parents are not supposed to
>>>>> help too much. I do definitely agree that this is important for a
>>>>> good working relation with the dog, especially in the first few
>>>>> months.
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree that it needs to be the choice of the child to get a guide
>>>>> dog. It most certainly was me, not my parents, who decided that I
>>>>> would get a guide dog. They most certainly were not against it, but
>>>>> it was my decision, and they have always been mostly supportive of
>>>>> letting make my own personal choices.
>>>>>
>>>>> I also agree that having a child get a guide dog because the child
>>>>> is supposedly safer is not a valid reason for a child to get a
>>>>> guide dog, especially if the parents expect the dog to protect the
> child.
>>>>> I do agree that some people are probably not mature enough at
>>>>> thirteen or fourteen to get a guide dog, but I am sure that some do
>>>>> exist.
>>>>> Again, it is
>>>>> something that needs to be considered differently for each situation.
>>>>>
>>>>> It is not *horrible* to wait till you are sixteen, but I certainly
>>>>> would have enjoyed a guide dog a little sooner than I got one. I
>>>>> find travel that much easier and more enjoyable with a dog rather
>>>>> than a cane.
>>>>>
>>>>> Perhaps one way of trying to make sure that the dog was actually
>>>>> used as a guide dog and did not just become a pet would be to have
>>>>> stricter vision requirements for younger children as I feel that
>>>>> younger children are more likely to use (or try to use) any
>>>>> remaining vision that they have.
>>>>> This gets
>>>>> back to that a person needs to have accepted his/her blindness
>>>>> before getting a guide dog.
>>>>>
>>>>> I also don't like that people think that children can be more
>>>>> independent just because they have a guide dog. There is nothing
>>>>> that keeps a parent from reaching over and holding on to his/her
>>>>> child if the child has a dog any more than if the child has a cane.
>>>>> I am an adult, and people still try to hold onto and direct me when
>>>>> I am using my dog.
>>>>>
>>>>> Returning to the point about children having to tell people,
>>>>> including people older than him/her, not to pet the dog, I can
>>>>> definitely tell where this would be a problem. However, if it is
>>>>> junior high and not elementary school, I would think that the
>>>>> school staff could come to understand the rules, even if it had to
>>>>> come from someone other than the child, such as a rep from the
>>>>> guide dog school.
>>>>>
>>>>> As a closing case, I will say that, although I reference my
>>>>> experiences in this email, my experiences certainly are not those
>>>>> of every blind child.
>>>>>
>>>>> Nicole
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Deanna
>>>>> Lewis
>>>>> Sent: Friday, May 31, 2013 5:05 AM
>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>> Users(nagdu at nfbnet.org)
>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] Guide dog school that offers guide dogs to
>>>>> children between the ages of 11 & 17 years old.
>>>>>
>>>>> What do you all think about this...
>>>>> Deanna and Pascal
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> MIRA - The only organization in the United States dedicated to
>>>>> providing guide dogs to blind children and youth between the ages
>>>>> of 11-17.
>>>>>
>>>>> MIRA: from the Spanish "look", "to have one's sights set on", was
>>>>> the nickname of a favorite guide dog trained by Eric St. Pierre,
>>>>> founder of MIRA Canada. MIRA Foundation USA takes its name from its
>>>>> collaboration with MIRA Canada, a nonprofit organization founded in
>>>>> 1981 upon the belief that all individuals, regardless of their
>>>>> physical challenges, should be able to set their sights on the same
>>>>> goals as those people born without handicaps.
>>>>>
>>>>> Today, MIRA Canada is recognized as a global leader in the
>>>>> breeding, selection, and training of guide and service dogs. MIRA
>>>>> USA was created in
>>>>>
>>>>> 2008 as a legally separate entity, but with close ties to MIRA
>>>>> Canada, where our dogs are currently trained.
>>>>>
>>>>> Our mission is to offer blind children in the United States between
>>>>> the ages of 11-17 the opportunity to receive guide dogs free of
>>>>> charge, to provide targeted educational outreach to promote public
>>>>> awareness, and, as we continue to grow, to offer support services
>>>>> to the adult population of blind and their families.
>>>>>
>>>>> It is our experience that blind children, for the most part, are
>>>>> highly adaptive, fiercely determined, and seek to have many of the
>>>>> same opportunities as their sighted peers. Although a cane provides
>>>>> an adequate degree of mobility for the blind and severely visually
>>>>> impaired, there remain some serious limitations. For example, it is
>>>>> impossible to navigate with a cane when there is no tactical
>>>>> information such as what is provided by sidewalks. A child living
>>>>> in a rural area is severely challenged by this restriction.
>>>>>
>>>>> Furthermore, a cane tends to be isolating, whereas a dog provides a
>>>>> social bridge to the sighted community. Not only are dogs social
>>>>> creatures, they also provide stability and a level of protection
>>>>> through their visual awareness training that a cane could never
>>>>> replicate.
>>>>>
>>>>> Finally, a guide dog provides a young blind person with a greater
>>>>> level of self-reliance at an early age. Although a very young
>>>>> student is not going to be out on the streets alone with their dog,
>>>>> having the ability to navigate without holding a parent's hand is
>>>>> crucial to developing maturity and confidence. The student's
>>>>> freedom and mobility are especially enhanced in the school
>>>>> environment with the assistance of a guide dog. Although there is
>>>>> no cure for blindness, there can be hope, and we at MIRA witness it
>>>>> every day through the service of a MIRA guide dog.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.mirausa.org/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> le.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
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