[nagdu] How long is "successful"

Sat Jun 8 01:40:01 UTC 2013

Tracy, I agree.  I think there could be good stats on bad matches, dogs
going out with health problems, etc.  I am just attempting to think along
with you about the ways we can define what success means in order to get
statistics we'd want.  I think you've got a good idea here.  Let's all keep
working on this.

Margo and Arrow

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tracy Carcione
Sent: Friday, June 07, 2013 3:09 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] How long is "successful"

I'm not comparing it to hospital stays; I was just trying to give an example
of helpful statistics.  Rebecca's example of divorce statistics is a better
comparison.  Nor would I expect it to be the whole picture, more another
piece of data to use.  For instance, when I was choosing a place to get
trained in computer programming, my first question was "What percentage of
your graduates got work in the field after completing training?"  That's
another kind of success statistic.
I feel that stats on bad matches or unhealthy dogs would be helpful to both
school and prospective student.
Anyway, I'm sure I've used up my 5 list messages, so I'm off.
Tracy

----- Original Message -----
From: "Margo and Arrow" <margo.downey at verizon.net>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, June 07, 2013 2:15 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] How long is "successful"

> Tracy, I don't know if we can statistically do this.  I'm sure there are
> ways to do it but I do not believe statistics show the entire opicture and

> I
> also think comparing this to hospital stays is like comparing apples and
> oranges.
>
> Margoa nd Arrow
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tracy Carcione
> Sent: Friday, June 07, 2013 1:19 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] How long is "successful"
>
> I think we're mixing up personal success with statistical success.  I'd
> agree that, on a personal level, getting your dog to do what you want with

> a
> minimum of effort, and being safe together, constitutes success.  But how 
> do
> you measure that, if you want broad statistics?  The only way I can think 
> of
> is to see how long the team stays together.  There will be 
> outliers--people
> who retired a dog young because of an attack, for instance, but it's the
> only way I can figure to measure what I want to measure. If someone has a
> better idea, I'd love to hear it.
> Now, maybe you don't care.  You're happy with your dog and your school, 
> and
> that's all that counts.  I can dig that.  But I'd also like some level of
> assurance that, when I go to class, I have the best chance of getting a 
> dog
> I can work with for a long time.  Right now, all a person can do is talk 
> to
> other people from their school of choice and see how they've done.  I just
> wonder if there isn't some more objective measure that could be added into
> the mix, to give the prospective student another way to compare schools, 
> and
> to show schools if their training is working as well as they would like.
> After all, the hospital I work for analyzes data on bad outcomes, so we 
> can
> do better.
> Tracy
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Larry D. Keeler" <lkeeler at comcast.net>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, June 07, 2013 12:42 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] How long is "successful"
>
>
>> Well, the point is that in my neighborhood, I know where those small
>> curbs are at. She does stop at the big ones and whenever there are
>> obstacles in the way. But, for me, the little ones where I live are
>> not that important so I don't get on Holly to do them. I could have
>> but its really not that important. Some folks might not consider that
>> successful but, i don't really mind. I do  care if obstacles are there
>> and if she didn't stop for them! Some folks will tolerate there dogs
>> eating things they shouldn't or sniffing other folks for example. What
>> I consider successful is that if I want Holly to do something, I can get
> her to do it with a minimum of fuss.
>> If I want her to stop at those little curbs, she will! And, if we are
>> somewhere that I don't know, she will anyway. I guess success for me
>> is knowing what your dog will do when you do something and what your
>> dog knows you will do! And, if your dog listens to your commands and
>> you listen to the dog.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Star Gazer" <pickrellrebecca at gmail.com>
>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Friday, June 07, 2013 11:25 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] How long is "successful"
>>
>>
>>> Larry,
>>> Your post about your dog not stopping at curbs as a good example of how
>>> difficult this is to deal with.
>>> Reading your post, I was thinking "I couldn't deal with that behavior". 
>>> Y
>>> Ou feel differently. You love your dog. You and she have a history. I
>>> don't
>>> know your dog, and have no history with her.
>>> I'm wondering if the statistics used on marriage and divorce rates would
>>> serve as a good model?
>>> We all know people who have been married for 60 years and are miserable.
>>> Yet, for all kinds of reasons they stay married.
>>> Likewise, we all know marriages that ended quickly for any number of
>>> reasons.
>>> And as with dogs, we all have a friend where we think "How does she put
>>> up
>>> with *that*".
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Larry D.
>>> Keeler
>>> Sent: Friday, June 07, 2013 11:19 AM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] How long is "successful"
>>>
>>> Aggreed! My point is that too many variables exist to have a perfect
>>> team.
>>> You have to use some kind of continuum scale to measure. And, what
>>> success
>>> if for one is not the same as it is for another. If you use saftey as
>>> you're
>>> standard most folks I know at least have that covered.
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Margo and Arrow" <margo.downey at verizon.net>
>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Friday, June 07, 2013 10:53 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] How long is "successful"
>>>
>>>
>>>> Well, I'd say that even if a team works for one month and does well,
>>>> they're successful.  I say this because after one gets home, things
>>>> could happen.
>>>> Dogs get sick, humans get sick, dogs die, humans die, circumstances
>>>> change, etc., etc., etc.
>>>>
>>>> I just don't think we can put too much of a figure on it.  I figure,
>>>> though, one can begin to tell how successful a team is after they get
>>>> home and work a bit.  One can also tell during class if a team might
>>>> be successful or not.
>>>>
>>>> Margoa nd Arrow
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tracy
>>>> Carcione
>>>> Sent: Friday, June 07, 2013 8:04 AM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Subject: [nagdu] How long is "successful"
>>>>
>>>> Darla asked how long a team has to be out to be "successful".  I'd say
>>>> at least 2 years, just to put a number on it.  Or possibly 3; I could
>>>> argue either way.
>>>> I'd be real curious to see numbers from schools of teams graduated,
>>>> and partnerships that lasted 3 years or more. I think that should be a
>>>> pretty good indicator as to how well the school is doing. I mean, if
>>>> school X put out 500 teams, and 300 of them stayed together, that's
>>>> only a 60% success rate, and not so good.  But if 400 of them worked 3
>>>> years or more, that's 80% success, which is pretty good.
>>>> Tracy
>>>>
>>>>
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