[nagdu] OFF LIST Re: How long is "successful"
Larry D. Keeler
lkeeler at comcast.net
Sat Jun 8 02:53:48 UTC 2013
Sorry! Thaught it was off list.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marsha Drenth" <marsha.drenth at gmail.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, June 07, 2013 10:37 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] OFF LIST Re: How long is "successful"
> Larry, The below message is a one line message. Please try not to post one
> line messages to the list.
>
> Thank you for your cooperation,
>
> Marsha drenth, NAGDU List Moderator
> Sent with my IPhone
>
> On Jun 7, 2013, at 8:45 PM, "Larry D. Keeler" <lkeeler at comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> Its funny how many folks like to judge!
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tami Jarvis" <tami at poodlemutt.com>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Friday, June 07, 2013 7:52 PM
>> Subject: [nagdu] OFF LIST Re: How long is "successful"
>>
>>
>>> Yikes! Was that feeling of being blamed at the Convention when Fisher
>>> was having his problems? I went through that with Mitzi at Convention
>>> when she took to snarking. Some other handlers were supportive and gave
>>> good suggestions and stuff. Others... OMG! It was not at all helpful,
>>> and some was quite offensive. Which made me start to feel defensive and
>>> snarky when I knew other guide dog users were around, so guess who
>>> picked up on that. Sheesh! We got more or less settled down by the end,
>>> so I didn't totally have to avoid other guide dogs for the last couple
>>> of days. Then I had to do some work with Mitzi to ensure she was fit to
>>> be around other guides... She is much better now, although if I'm
>>> uptight or in pain, then I have to remember to be more cautious with her
>>> and just jolly her up like the wind to prevent the snark. Then again,
>>> when I'm super uptight and/or in a lot of pain, I'm not fit to be in
>>> public, either, so there you go. /lol/
>>>
>>> Hope you enjoy Convention while Fisher has a nice vacation. /smile/
>>> Don't know if I would bring Mitzi if I could make it... She's much more
>>> mature now, but that's a pretty high-pressure environment. Would not
>>> want to spend another few fun-filled days with the snark monster of the
>>> universe!
>>>
>>> Tami
>>>
>>> On 06/07/2013 10:31 AM, Cindy Ray wrote:
>>>> OK, this is all good. But for the most part, a hospital does things for
>>>> and to you, the patient, and you get well or you don't. There are, of
>>>> course, some things you may have to do in response to what the hospital
>>>> did, sufch as take our meds. Now, with a dog team, I don't know that
>>>> you could have a measurement like that. First of all, what would you
>>>> measure? You train a dog, and on paper and with the trainer, it does a
>>>> great job. Then you match it with someone. Life happens; the person
>>>> maybe has a personality that doesn't mesh with the dog; the person
>>>> doesn't keep up the training like he should; something alarms the dog
>>>> and she is traumatized. I, personally, have had two dogs with which I
>>>> was definitely unsuccessful and one that begs the question. But I don't
>>>> know for sure how that could be handled. I'm not sure how the school
>>>> could handle my current situation. That is, I do agree it is a problem
>>>> if all going wrong is the handler's fault. For the first time ever I
>>>> felt I was being a
>>> ccused of this at the convention last summer, and this came as a shock
>>> to me. I may revisit it, too. But I think our relationship is a success.
>>> I just don't see what kind of raw data could be used, but maybe there
>>> truly is some. For me, though, I think one of the best ways to determine
>>> where I want to acquire my dog is by visiting that school and talking to
>>> its graduates. That's like going to the doctor. You say, "I just love
>>> Dr. Martin; he is such a fine doctor." Someone responds, "You have got
>>> to be kidding! I wouldn't go to that doctor again if my life depended on
>>> it." If I had enough people say that to me about my school, I wouldn't
>>> go there again. There is a school discussed here rather prominently
>>> where I would have never gone before. I probably still wouldn't, but I
>>> would be more apt to do so than I would have 2o0 years ago. That for me
>>> is the best statistic.
>>>>
>>>> Cindy Lou
>>>>
>>>> On Jun 7, 2013, at 12:19 PM, "Tracy Carcione" <carcione at access.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I think we're mixing up personal success with statistical success.
>>>>> I'd agree that, on a personal level, getting your dog to do what you
>>>>> want with a minimum of effort, and being safe together, constitutes
>>>>> success. But how do you measure that, if you want broad statistics?
>>>>> The only way I can think of is to see how long the team stays
>>>>> together. There will be outliers--people who retired a dog young
>>>>> because of an attack, for instance, but it's the only way I can figure
>>>>> to measure what I want to measure. If someone has a better idea, I'd
>>>>> love to hear it.
>>>>> Now, maybe you don't care. You're happy with your dog and your
>>>>> school, and that's all that counts. I can dig that. But I'd also
>>>>> like some level of assurance that, when I go to class, I have the best
>>>>> chance of getting a dog I can work with for a long time. Right now,
>>>>> all a person can do is talk to other people from their school of
>>>>> choice and see how they've done. I just wonder if there isn't some
>>>>> more objective measure that could be added into the mix, to give the
>>>>> prospective student another way to compare schools, and to show
>>>>> schools if their training is working as well as they would like. After
>>>>> all, the hospital I work for analyzes data on bad outcomes, so we can
>>>>> do better.
>>>>> Tracy
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry D. Keeler"
>>>>> <lkeeler at comcast.net>
>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Friday, June 07, 2013 12:42 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] How long is "successful"
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, the point is that in my neighborhood, I know where those small
>>>>>> curbs are at. She does stop at the big ones and whenever there are
>>>>>> obstacles in the way. But, for me, the little ones where I live are
>>>>>> not that important so I don't get on Holly to do them. I could have
>>>>>> but its really not that important. Some folks might not consider that
>>>>>> successful but, i don't really mind. I do care if obstacles are
>>>>>> there and if she didn't stop for them! Some folks will tolerate there
>>>>>> dogs eating things they shouldn't or sniffing other folks for
>>>>>> example. What I consider successful is that if I want Holly to do
>>>>>> something, I can get her to do it with a minimum of fuss. If I want
>>>>>> her to stop at those little curbs, she will! And, if we are somewhere
>>>>>> that I don't know, she will anyway. I guess success for me is knowing
>>>>>> what your dog will do when you do something and what your dog knows
>>>>>> you will do! And, if your dog listens to your commands and you listen
>>>>>> to the dog.
>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Star Gazer"
>>>>>> <pickrellrebecca at gmail.com>
>>>>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>> Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, June 07, 2013 11:25 AM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] How long is "successful"
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Larry,
>>>>>>> Your post about your dog not stopping at curbs as a good example of
>>>>>>> how
>>>>>>> difficult this is to deal with.
>>>>>>> Reading your post, I was thinking "I couldn't deal with that
>>>>>>> behavior". Y
>>>>>>> Ou feel differently. You love your dog. You and she have a history.
>>>>>>> I don't
>>>>>>> know your dog, and have no history with her.
>>>>>>> I'm wondering if the statistics used on marriage and divorce rates
>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>> serve as a good model?
>>>>>>> We all know people who have been married for 60 years and are
>>>>>>> miserable.
>>>>>>> Yet, for all kinds of reasons they stay married.
>>>>>>> Likewise, we all know marriages that ended quickly for any number of
>>>>>>> reasons.
>>>>>>> And as with dogs, we all have a friend where we think "How does she
>>>>>>> put up
>>>>>>> with *that*".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Larry D.
>>>>>>> Keeler
>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, June 07, 2013 11:19 AM
>>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] How long is "successful"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Aggreed! My point is that too many variables exist to have a perfect
>>>>>>> team.
>>>>>>> You have to use some kind of continuum scale to measure. And, what
>>>>>>> success
>>>>>>> if for one is not the same as it is for another. If you use saftey
>>>>>>> as you're
>>>>>>> standard most folks I know at least have that covered.
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "Margo and Arrow" <margo.downey at verizon.net>
>>>>>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>>> Users'"
>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, June 07, 2013 10:53 AM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] How long is "successful"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Well, I'd say that even if a team works for one month and does
>>>>>>>> well,
>>>>>>>> they're successful. I say this because after one gets home, things
>>>>>>>> could happen.
>>>>>>>> Dogs get sick, humans get sick, dogs die, humans die, circumstances
>>>>>>>> change, etc., etc., etc.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I just don't think we can put too much of a figure on it. I
>>>>>>>> figure,
>>>>>>>> though, one can begin to tell how successful a team is after they
>>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>>> home and work a bit. One can also tell during class if a team
>>>>>>>> might
>>>>>>>> be successful or not.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Margoa nd Arrow
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tracy
>>>>>>>> Carcione
>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, June 07, 2013 8:04 AM
>>>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] How long is "successful"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Darla asked how long a team has to be out to be "successful". I'd
>>>>>>>> say
>>>>>>>> at least 2 years, just to put a number on it. Or possibly 3; I
>>>>>>>> could
>>>>>>>> argue either way.
>>>>>>>> I'd be real curious to see numbers from schools of teams graduated,
>>>>>>>> and partnerships that lasted 3 years or more. I think that should
>>>>>>>> be a
>>>>>>>> pretty good indicator as to how well the school is doing. I mean,
>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>> school X put out 500 teams, and 300 of them stayed together, that's
>>>>>>>> only a 60% success rate, and not so good. But if 400 of them
>>>>>>>> worked 3
>>>>>>>> years or more, that's 80% success, which is pretty good.
>>>>>>>> Tracy
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>> on.net
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
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