[nagdu] OFF LIST Re: How long is "successful"

Tina Thomas judotina48kg at gmail.com
Sat Jun 8 16:40:06 UTC 2013 

Also, this message has off list in the subject line, however all of the
messages were posted to the list. Check your to and cc fields before sending
messages. 
Tina and the girls     

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Marsha Drenth
Sent: Friday, June 07, 2013 7:37 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] OFF LIST Re: How long is "successful"

Larry, The below message is a one line message. Please try not to post one
line messages to the list. 

Thank you for your cooperation,

Marsha drenth, NAGDU List Moderator
Sent with my IPhone 

On Jun 7, 2013, at 8:45 PM, "Larry D. Keeler" <lkeeler at comcast.net> wrote:

> Its funny how many folks like to judge!
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tami Jarvis" <tami at poodlemutt.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, June 07, 2013 7:52 PM
> Subject: [nagdu] OFF LIST Re: How long is "successful"
> 
> 
>> Yikes! Was that feeling of being blamed at the Convention when Fisher 
>> was having his problems? I went through that with Mitzi at Convention 
>> when she took to snarking. Some other handlers were supportive and 
>> gave good suggestions and stuff. Others... OMG! It was not at all 
>> helpful, and some was quite offensive. Which made me start to feel 
>> defensive and snarky when I knew other guide dog users were around, 
>> so guess who picked up on that. Sheesh! We got more or less settled 
>> down by the end, so I didn't totally have to avoid other guide dogs 
>> for the last couple of days. Then I had to do some work with Mitzi to 
>> ensure she was fit to be around other guides... She is much better 
>> now, although if I'm uptight or in pain, then I have to remember to 
>> be more cautious with her and just jolly her up like the wind to 
>> prevent the snark. Then again, when I'm super uptight and/or in a lot 
>> of pain, I'm not fit to be in public, either, so there you go. /lol/
>> 
>> Hope you enjoy Convention while Fisher has a nice vacation. /smile/ Don't
know if I would bring Mitzi if I could make it... She's much more mature
now, but that's a pretty high-pressure environment. Would not want to spend
another few fun-filled days with the snark monster of the universe!
>> 
>> Tami
>> 
>> On 06/07/2013 10:31 AM, Cindy Ray wrote:
>>> OK, this is all good. But for the most part, a hospital does things 
>>> for and to you, the patient, and you get well or you don't. There 
>>> are, of course, some things you may have to do in response to what 
>>> the hospital did, sufch as take our meds. Now, with a dog team, I 
>>> don't know that you could have a measurement like that. First of 
>>> all, what would you measure? You train a dog, and on paper and with 
>>> the trainer, it does a great job. Then you match it with someone. 
>>> Life happens; the person maybe has a personality that doesn't mesh 
>>> with the dog; the person doesn't keep up the training like he 
>>> should; something alarms the dog and she is traumatized. I, 
>>> personally, have had two dogs with which I was definitely 
>>> unsuccessful and one that begs the question. But I don't know for 
>>> sure how that could be handled. I'm not sure how the school could 
>>> handle my current situation. That is, I do agree it is a problem if 
>>> all going wrong is the handler's fault. For the first time ever I 
>>> felt I was being a
>> ccused of this at the convention last summer, and this came as a shock to
me. I may revisit it, too. But I think our relationship is a success. I just
don't see what kind of raw data could be used, but maybe there truly is
some. For me, though, I think one of the best ways to determine where I want
to acquire my dog is by visiting that school and talking to its graduates.
That's like going to the doctor. You say, "I just love Dr. Martin; he is
such a fine doctor." Someone responds, "You have got to be kidding! I
wouldn't go to that doctor again if my life depended on it." If I had enough
people say that to me about my school, I wouldn't go there again. There is a
school discussed here rather prominently where I would have never gone
before. I probably still wouldn't, but I would be more apt to do so than I
would have 2o0 years ago. That for me is the best statistic.
>>> 
>>> Cindy Lou
>>> 
>>> On Jun 7, 2013, at 12:19 PM, "Tracy Carcione" <carcione at access.net>
wrote:
>>> 
>>>> I think we're mixing up personal success with statistical success.  I'd
agree that, on a personal level, getting your dog to do what you want with a
minimum of effort, and being safe together, constitutes success. But how do
you measure that, if you want broad statistics?  The only way I can think of
is to see how long the team stays together.  There will be outliers--people
who retired a dog young because of an attack, for instance, but it's the
only way I can figure to measure what I want to measure. If someone has a
better idea, I'd love to hear it.
>>>> Now, maybe you don't care.  You're happy with your dog and your school,
and that's all that counts.  I can dig that.  But I'd also like some level
of assurance that, when I go to class, I have the best chance of getting a
dog I can work with for a long time.  Right now, all a person can do is talk
to other people from their school of choice and see how they've done.  I
just wonder if there isn't some more objective measure that could be added
into the mix, to give the prospective student another way to compare
schools, and to show schools if their training is working as well as they
would like. After all, the hospital I work for analyzes data on bad
outcomes, so we can do better.
>>>> Tracy
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry D. Keeler" 
>>>> <lkeeler at comcast.net>
>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog 
>>>> Users" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Friday, June 07, 2013 12:42 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] How long is "successful"
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> Well, the point is that in my neighborhood, I know where those small
curbs are at. She does stop at the big ones and whenever there are obstacles
in the way. But, for me, the little ones where I live are not that important
so I don't get on Holly to do them. I could have but its really not that
important. Some folks might not consider that successful but, i don't really
mind. I do  care if obstacles are there and if she didn't stop for them!
Some folks will tolerate there dogs eating things they shouldn't or sniffing
other folks for example. What I consider successful is that if I want Holly
to do something, I can get her to do it with a minimum of fuss. If I want
her to stop at those little curbs, she will! And, if we are somewhere that I
don't know, she will anyway. I guess success for me is knowing what your dog
will do when you do something and what your dog knows you will do! And, if
your dog listens to your commands and you listen to the dog.
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Star Gazer" 
>>>>> <pickrellrebecca at gmail.com>
>>>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog 
>>>>> Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Friday, June 07, 2013 11:25 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] How long is "successful"
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Larry,
>>>>>> Your post about your dog not stopping at curbs as a good example 
>>>>>> of how difficult this is to deal with.
>>>>>> Reading your post, I was thinking "I couldn't deal with that 
>>>>>> behavior". Y Ou feel differently. You love your dog. You and she 
>>>>>> have a history. I don't know your dog, and have no history with her.
>>>>>> I'm wondering if the statistics used on marriage and divorce 
>>>>>> rates would serve as a good model?
>>>>>> We all know people who have been married for 60 years and are
miserable.
>>>>>> Yet, for all kinds of reasons they stay married.
>>>>>> Likewise, we all know marriages that ended quickly for any number 
>>>>>> of reasons.
>>>>>> And as with dogs, we all have a friend where we think "How does 
>>>>>> she put up with *that*".
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Larry 
>>>>>> D. Keeler
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, June 07, 2013 11:19 AM
>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog 
>>>>>> Users
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] How long is "successful"
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Aggreed! My point is that too many variables exist to have a perfect
team.
>>>>>> You have to use some kind of continuum scale to measure. And, 
>>>>>> what success if for one is not the same as it is for another. If 
>>>>>> you use saftey as you're standard most folks I know at least have
that covered.
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Margo and Arrow" <margo.downey at verizon.net>
>>>>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
Users'"
>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, June 07, 2013 10:53 AM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] How long is "successful"
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Well, I'd say that even if a team works for one month and does 
>>>>>>> well, they're successful.  I say this because after one gets 
>>>>>>> home, things could happen.
>>>>>>> Dogs get sick, humans get sick, dogs die, humans die, 
>>>>>>> circumstances change, etc., etc., etc.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I just don't think we can put too much of a figure on it.  I 
>>>>>>> figure, though, one can begin to tell how successful a team is 
>>>>>>> after they get home and work a bit.  One can also tell during 
>>>>>>> class if a team might be successful or not.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Margoa nd Arrow
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tracy 
>>>>>>> Carcione
>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, June 07, 2013 8:04 AM
>>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog 
>>>>>>> Users
>>>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] How long is "successful"
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Darla asked how long a team has to be out to be "successful".  
>>>>>>> I'd say at least 2 years, just to put a number on it.  Or 
>>>>>>> possibly 3; I could argue either way.
>>>>>>> I'd be real curious to see numbers from schools of teams 
>>>>>>> graduated, and partnerships that lasted 3 years or more. I think 
>>>>>>> that should be a pretty good indicator as to how well the school 
>>>>>>> is doing. I mean, if school X put out 500 teams, and 300 of them 
>>>>>>> stayed together, that's only a 60% success rate, and not so 
>>>>>>> good.  But if 400 of them worked 3 years or more, that's 80%
success, which is pretty good.
>>>>>>> Tracy
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
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>>>>>> 
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