[nagdu] OFF LIST Re: How long is "successful"

Thu Jun 13 18:04:43 UTC 2013

Hahaha,Tina,
I think the problem of people accidently posting to the list what they 
thouoght was off list is easy to do.  Yeah, I made that little blunder not 
too long ago! (grin)  Some of the other lists have a Reply that sends only 
to the person and a Reply All to go to the whole list.  The Seeing Eye List 
and the CCB - I think their guide dog users (GDUC) also does it that way but 
NAGDU has only Reply and that goes to the whole list.

What I do now is to copy and paste the person's own private email address in 
the header and send a seperate one just to that person.

Lyn and Landon
"Asking who's the man and who's the woman in an LGBT relationship is like 
asking which chopstick is the fork" - Unknown
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tina Thomas" <judotina48kg at gmail.com>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, June 08, 2013 9:40 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] OFF LIST Re: How long is "successful"

> Also, this message has off list in the subject line, however all of the
> messages were posted to the list. Check your to and cc fields before 
> sending
> messages.
> Tina and the girls
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Marsha Drenth
> Sent: Friday, June 07, 2013 7:37 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] OFF LIST Re: How long is "successful"
>
> Larry, The below message is a one line message. Please try not to post one
> line messages to the list.
>
> Thank you for your cooperation,
>
> Marsha drenth, NAGDU List Moderator
> Sent with my IPhone
>
> On Jun 7, 2013, at 8:45 PM, "Larry D. Keeler" <lkeeler at comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> Its funny how many folks like to judge!
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tami Jarvis" <tami at poodlemutt.com>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Friday, June 07, 2013 7:52 PM
>> Subject: [nagdu] OFF LIST Re: How long is "successful"
>>
>>
>>> Yikes! Was that feeling of being blamed at the Convention when Fisher
>>> was having his problems? I went through that with Mitzi at Convention
>>> when she took to snarking. Some other handlers were supportive and
>>> gave good suggestions and stuff. Others... OMG! It was not at all
>>> helpful, and some was quite offensive. Which made me start to feel
>>> defensive and snarky when I knew other guide dog users were around,
>>> so guess who picked up on that. Sheesh! We got more or less settled
>>> down by the end, so I didn't totally have to avoid other guide dogs
>>> for the last couple of days. Then I had to do some work with Mitzi to
>>> ensure she was fit to be around other guides... She is much better
>>> now, although if I'm uptight or in pain, then I have to remember to
>>> be more cautious with her and just jolly her up like the wind to
>>> prevent the snark. Then again, when I'm super uptight and/or in a lot
>>> of pain, I'm not fit to be in public, either, so there you go. /lol/
>>>
>>> Hope you enjoy Convention while Fisher has a nice vacation. /smile/ 
>>> Don't
> know if I would bring Mitzi if I could make it... She's much more mature
> now, but that's a pretty high-pressure environment. Would not want to 
> spend
> another few fun-filled days with the snark monster of the universe!
>>>
>>> Tami
>>>
>>> On 06/07/2013 10:31 AM, Cindy Ray wrote:
>>>> OK, this is all good. But for the most part, a hospital does things
>>>> for and to you, the patient, and you get well or you don't. There
>>>> are, of course, some things you may have to do in response to what
>>>> the hospital did, sufch as take our meds. Now, with a dog team, I
>>>> don't know that you could have a measurement like that. First of
>>>> all, what would you measure? You train a dog, and on paper and with
>>>> the trainer, it does a great job. Then you match it with someone.
>>>> Life happens; the person maybe has a personality that doesn't mesh
>>>> with the dog; the person doesn't keep up the training like he
>>>> should; something alarms the dog and she is traumatized. I,
>>>> personally, have had two dogs with which I was definitely
>>>> unsuccessful and one that begs the question. But I don't know for
>>>> sure how that could be handled. I'm not sure how the school could
>>>> handle my current situation. That is, I do agree it is a problem if
>>>> all going wrong is the handler's fault. For the first time ever I
>>>> felt I was being a
>>> ccused of this at the convention last summer, and this came as a shock 
>>> to
> me. I may revisit it, too. But I think our relationship is a success. I 
> just
> don't see what kind of raw data could be used, but maybe there truly is
> some. For me, though, I think one of the best ways to determine where I 
> want
> to acquire my dog is by visiting that school and talking to its graduates.
> That's like going to the doctor. You say, "I just love Dr. Martin; he is
> such a fine doctor." Someone responds, "You have got to be kidding! I
> wouldn't go to that doctor again if my life depended on it." If I had 
> enough
> people say that to me about my school, I wouldn't go there again. There is 
> a
> school discussed here rather prominently where I would have never gone
> before. I probably still wouldn't, but I would be more apt to do so than I
> would have 2o0 years ago. That for me is the best statistic.
>>>>
>>>> Cindy Lou
>>>>
>>>> On Jun 7, 2013, at 12:19 PM, "Tracy Carcione" <carcione at access.net>
> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I think we're mixing up personal success with statistical success. 
>>>>> I'd
> agree that, on a personal level, getting your dog to do what you want with 
> a
> minimum of effort, and being safe together, constitutes success. But how 
> do
> you measure that, if you want broad statistics?  The only way I can think 
> of
> is to see how long the team stays together.  There will be 
> outliers--people
> who retired a dog young because of an attack, for instance, but it's the
> only way I can figure to measure what I want to measure. If someone has a
> better idea, I'd love to hear it.
>>>>> Now, maybe you don't care.  You're happy with your dog and your 
>>>>> school,
> and that's all that counts.  I can dig that.  But I'd also like some level
> of assurance that, when I go to class, I have the best chance of getting a
> dog I can work with for a long time.  Right now, all a person can do is 
> talk
> to other people from their school of choice and see how they've done.  I
> just wonder if there isn't some more objective measure that could be added
> into the mix, to give the prospective student another way to compare
> schools, and to show schools if their training is working as well as they
> would like. After all, the hospital I work for analyzes data on bad
> outcomes, so we can do better.
>>>>> Tracy
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry D. Keeler"
>>>>> <lkeeler at comcast.net>
>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>> Users" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Friday, June 07, 2013 12:42 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] How long is "successful"
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, the point is that in my neighborhood, I know where those small
> curbs are at. She does stop at the big ones and whenever there are 
> obstacles
> in the way. But, for me, the little ones where I live are not that 
> important
> so I don't get on Holly to do them. I could have but its really not that
> important. Some folks might not consider that successful but, i don't 
> really
> mind. I do  care if obstacles are there and if she didn't stop for them!
> Some folks will tolerate there dogs eating things they shouldn't or 
> sniffing
> other folks for example. What I consider successful is that if I want 
> Holly
> to do something, I can get her to do it with a minimum of fuss. If I want
> her to stop at those little curbs, she will! And, if we are somewhere that 
> I
> don't know, she will anyway. I guess success for me is knowing what your 
> dog
> will do when you do something and what your dog knows you will do! And, if
> your dog listens to your commands and you listen to the dog.
>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Star Gazer"
>>>>>> <pickrellrebecca at gmail.com>
>>>>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>> Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, June 07, 2013 11:25 AM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] How long is "successful"
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Larry,
>>>>>>> Your post about your dog not stopping at curbs as a good example
>>>>>>> of how difficult this is to deal with.
>>>>>>> Reading your post, I was thinking "I couldn't deal with that
>>>>>>> behavior". Y Ou feel differently. You love your dog. You and she
>>>>>>> have a history. I don't know your dog, and have no history with her.
>>>>>>> I'm wondering if the statistics used on marriage and divorce
>>>>>>> rates would serve as a good model?
>>>>>>> We all know people who have been married for 60 years and are
> miserable.
>>>>>>> Yet, for all kinds of reasons they stay married.
>>>>>>> Likewise, we all know marriages that ended quickly for any number
>>>>>>> of reasons.
>>>>>>> And as with dogs, we all have a friend where we think "How does
>>>>>>> she put up with *that*".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Larry
>>>>>>> D. Keeler
>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, June 07, 2013 11:19 AM
>>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>>> Users
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] How long is "successful"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Aggreed! My point is that too many variables exist to have a perfect
> team.
>>>>>>> You have to use some kind of continuum scale to measure. And,
>>>>>>> what success if for one is not the same as it is for another. If
>>>>>>> you use saftey as you're standard most folks I know at least have
> that covered.
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "Margo and Arrow" <margo.downey at verizon.net>
>>>>>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
> Users'"
>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, June 07, 2013 10:53 AM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] How long is "successful"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Well, I'd say that even if a team works for one month and does
>>>>>>>> well, they're successful.  I say this because after one gets
>>>>>>>> home, things could happen.
>>>>>>>> Dogs get sick, humans get sick, dogs die, humans die,
>>>>>>>> circumstances change, etc., etc., etc.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I just don't think we can put too much of a figure on it.  I
>>>>>>>> figure, though, one can begin to tell how successful a team is
>>>>>>>> after they get home and work a bit.  One can also tell during
>>>>>>>> class if a team might be successful or not.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Margoa nd Arrow
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tracy
>>>>>>>> Carcione
>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, June 07, 2013 8:04 AM
>>>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>>>> Users
>>>>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] How long is "successful"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Darla asked how long a team has to be out to be "successful".
>>>>>>>> I'd say at least 2 years, just to put a number on it.  Or
>>>>>>>> possibly 3; I could argue either way.
>>>>>>>> I'd be real curious to see numbers from schools of teams
>>>>>>>> graduated, and partnerships that lasted 3 years or more. I think
>>>>>>>> that should be a pretty good indicator as to how well the school
>>>>>>>> is doing. I mean, if school X put out 500 teams, and 300 of them
>>>>>>>> stayed together, that's only a 60% success rate, and not so
>>>>>>>> good.  But if 400 of them worked 3 years or more, that's 80%
> success, which is pretty good.
>>>>>>>> Tracy
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>
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