[nagdu] {Disarmed} Fake Service Dogs, Real Problem | Cesar Millan

Debbie Cole debbieanne1124 at gmail.com
Mon May 27 19:49:34 UTC 2013


GO, TAMI!!!

Fake service dogs???  what are they really?  Can someone describe them
in so many words?

It should not be classified aas an owner trained Dog.

I'm a personal friend of Tami and her husband.  I've spent time with
her and her dogs.  We have workedd our dogs together.

Owner Trained...
School Trained.

My God ws trained at Guide Dogs of the Desert in Palm Springs.  School Trained.
Tami's dog is owner trained.  She did all the hard work herself.
I honor her for doing such a fabulous job.  Mitzi is trained for her
right side.  She does excellent traffic work and obstacles.  Might I
add she works pretty much in the same way as a school trained dog
does.  Mitzi obeys all her commands.  I might add that Mitzi's
behavior is  far better than some guide dogs I've seen.

Some folks on other Guide Dog support lists ahve been so critical of
Tami and other owner trained Dogs.  They really get torn into with
criticism and abuse.

I've often thought Tami should open up her own school.  (then that
wouldn't be owner trained.

I'm glad NAGDU is the "smart" list.

Debbie & Leone

On 5/27/13, Tami Jarvis <tami at poodlemutt.com> wrote:
> Thanks, Marion! I knew I could count on NAGDU. I had not thought of the
> Attorney General's office, but will include them in my letter writing!
>
> I was freaking out, honestly, until I remembered a thing or two. Isn't
> it true that even if Oregon passes a law requiring service dog users to
> present proof of disability or other ID or certification, the state
> can't enforce that because of the ADA?
>
> Scary thought. A number of guide dog users in Oregon seem to be all for
> their being required to show proof of disability to take their dogs into
> stores or on the bus/train... Bummer about that ADA that makes it so we
> can't do that, they say. I'm trying to present an alternative
> perspective on a point at a time without hitting anyone over the head,
> which is tempting. But it's hard because I don't understand that
> thinking at all! The real problems the metro crowd is having with other
> dogs that affect their dogs come more from the growing homeless
> population and stuff, but I think it's easier to focus on those dratted
> fakes and frauds. Which includes anyone but them, since they don't
> understaqnd how the guy with the hearing alert dog could know when to
> get off the train if he couldn't hear the announcements. I have
> considered pointing out that somebody else on the train assumed they
> were a fraud the minute they got off at the correct stop, since they
> could not do that if they can't see the sign. I've decided not to say
> it, but I want to! /lol/
>
> I'll work on the approach to the Attorney General and need to put my
> thoughts in at least a draft to the legislators we're all supposed to
> write to.
>
> Thanks again!
>
> Tami
>
> On 05/26/2013 07:16 PM, blind411 wrote:
>> Tami,
>> 	As for your legislature's interest in creating a statute that would
>> require identification, you may want to get in touch with your Attorney
>> General's office which will advise the legislature on this issue to let
>> them
>> know that such a law would not be enforceable. If such a bill is
>> introduced,
>> do not hesitate to let NAGDU advocate on your behalf!
>>
>> Fraternally yours,
>> Marion
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tami Jarvis
>> Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 1:34 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] {Disarmed} Fake Service Dogs, Real Problem | Cesar
>> Millan
>>
>> Buddy,
>>
>> Hey, thanks! It is always great for an owner-trainer to get to hear a
>> more
>> traditional guide dog user state all of those points so well.
>> Including the "Grrrr...." which has become about my first and only
>> thought
>> on the subject of ID and certification. I understand why people think
>> about
>> it and wonder if it might help... Apparently, in my state, I need to
>> write
>> letters to legislators to counter a push for that on the subject. Yikes!
>> I
>> am told I just need to accept that I should spend travel time and money
>> for
>> professional blessing to have a legal certification like all of those who
>> have one from their guide dog program. Um...
>>
>> Dealing with the frauds themselves more decisively than we do would be a
>> great first start, I think. Also with the behavioral problems, because
>> that
>> seems to me to be the *real* problem. If little Fluffy is in the grocery
>> store behaving like an angel, then I do not care if Fluffy is also task
>> trained because Joe Blow her handler has a hidden disability.
>> I suppose if I discovered Joe Blow was able-bodied and Fluffy was just a
>> real nice pet, I would be morally offended on some level. But I have
>> enough
>> problems to solve without making Fluffy one of them. The grocery store's
>> rights are being more violated there than mine, but should we have
>> someone
>> at the door demanding proof of disability? Should that include the nature
>> of
>> the disability or information about the doctor that would give away
>> something that would create trouble from whomever looked at the card? Say
>> Fluffy is a seizure alert dog and Joe Blow just had to reveal that to
>> someone who still believes that means he is demon possessed? I realize we
>> guide dog users get all sorts of weirdness because of attitudes towards
>> blindness, and it's hard to hide so we have to deal. I'm just not sure
>> that
>> requiring those with "hidden disabilities" to bring more of that sort of
>> things on themselves is something I want to push for.
>>
>> So I'm for ongoing education, formal and informal. I'm for penalties for
>> bad
>> behavior, real enforcement for fraud... I would rather bring it down to
>> cases so that frauds start to realize they can't just get away with it.
>> That
>> won't stop all of them, but it would start to cut things down
>> -- or so I think. /smile/
>>
>> Tami
>> On 05/24/2013 08:35 AM, Buddy Brannan wrote:
>>> Grrrrrr….
>>>
>>> Here's a guide dog school representative saying that there *is* a
>> "certified service dog", and the best way to get one os to go to a
>> school.
>> Wrong on both counts; schools are great, but there are plenty of well
>> trained non-school service dogs. Plnty of awful ones too, but there are
>> plenty of awful school ones, so… Oh, and let's not even talk about the
>> whole
>> "leave it to the experts, they know best" attitude.
>>>
>>> Anyway, here's what I posted on another list about this subject. The
>> references to a previous Email aren't very important.
>>>
>>> Hi Angie,
>>>
>>> This points up a problem I've observed for a while now. Well, a couple
>>> of
>> things, really. First, an observation. I observe that there are some
>> service
>> dog users (mostly from guide dog schools, though I suspect that this is
>> not
>> exclusively so) who believe that the problems outlined in your Email
>> below
>> would be solved by a nationally recognized service dog certification. I
>> don't happen to be one such, for a variety of reasons that I won't
>> enumerate
>> here. Suffice to say I think that such a certification would create more
>> problems than it would solve.
>>>
>>> My second observation is that we, as a community, meaning service dog
>> users, have done a pretty good job of educating business owners, and the
>> general public, that we are allowed by law to be accompanied by
>> individually
>> trained service animals. However, there are two areas that we've not done
>> as
>> well in, and I commend you, Angie, for doing your part  to fill that
>> void.
>>>
>>> 1) As we know, the law states that we are allowed to be accompanied by
>>> a service animal individually trained, blah blah blah. The law does
>>> not confer any rights to the animal, rather, these rights are for the
>>> disabled person to be accompanied by the animal. Thus, when someone
>>> says "This is service dog, it is allowed to go anywhere in public",
>>> this statement is incorrect. It is the handler, not the dog, who has
>>> the right of accompaniment. My non-disabled sister would not have the
>>> right to bring Leno to her hair appointment because Leno was not
>>> specifically trained for her use, and, moreover, she doesn't have a
>>> disability. Put another way, Leno doesn't have the right to be
>>> anywhere that the general public is invited…without me. People often
>>> gloss over this distinction, but it's an important one, and especially
>>> important when we're talking about these people who would pass off
>>> their dogs as service dogs when they themselves don't have, and don't
>>> claim to have, any disabilities. So, we
>> got half the message across, but, whether through our not communicating
>> it
>> clearly or willful ignorance, an important distinction is often
>> missed…sometimes by us, and certainly by the general public. So, please,
>> when educating others of your rights, be mindful of the distinction: your
>> dog doesn't have any rights, you do.
>>>
>>> 2) In this respect, I think we've all fallen down on the job. Business
>>> owners do not understand that our rights to be accompanied by a
>>> service dog ***are not absolute***. We've done a great job, now people
>>> understand that service dogs are OK. Loud and clear. However, those
>>> rights are not absolute, as Angie illustrates perfectly below. As she
>>> also illustrates perfectly, this fact is not well, if at all,
>>> understood. Service dog or not, if our dog is disruptive or
>>> substantially alters the delivery of goods or services, that dog may
>>> be removed from the establishment. Of course, the business owner had
>>> better be able to document the nature of the disruption, destruction,
>>> or what have you, and it doesn't matter if your growling, lunging dog
>>> is service dog or not t that point. This doesn't give business owners
>>> the right to have your dog removed if it's ugly and messes with the
>>> decor or something like that. Point is, rights are important, both for
>>> us and for businesses. But as important are
>> responsibilities, both for us and for businesses. I'm not sure how we can
>> better educate on this, but I think we'll have to figure out how.
>>> --
>>> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
>>> Phone: (814) 860-3194 or 888-75-BUDDY
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On May 24, 2013, at 11:04 AM, James Alan Boehm
>>> <jimmydagerman80 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hello friends.
>>>> I came accross this article and wanted your thoughts. I know may have
>> pushed legislation that denies a companiy to ask for cerification of a
>> service dog. One issue that has encouraged businesses and such to ask for
>> verification is due to the fact that many abuse and claim their dog is a
>> service dog- a dog who has no training. The dog will behave
>> inappropriately,making it more difficult for those who have legitimate
>> guide
>> dogs. Further, the handler who takes his pet friend and claims the animal
>> is
>> a service animal, has no training themselves as to how to a service
>> animal
>> as well as the laws and do's and don'ts of public mobility. This makes it
>> again much more difficult for us I feel. Whay are your thoughts? Is there
>> any programs or action being taken to try to make it more difficult for
>> people to abuse the system?
>>>> Best,
>>>> James
>>>> Subscribe to MagazineDog Whisperer TVMillan FoundationEn Español My
>>>> CartRegisterLog in
>>>>     	
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Achieving balance between people and dogs.
>>>>
>>>> Dog Behavior
>>>>
>>>> Dog Care
>>>>
>>>> Dog Training
>>>>
>>>> Dog Rescue
>>>>
>>>> The Scoop
>>>>
>>>> Training Cesar's Way
>>>>
>>>> Community
>>>>
>>>> Cesar Millan TV
>>>>
>>>> Shop
>>>> ExerciseDisciplineAffectionThe WalkThe
>>>> BasicsSocializationLeadershipFlea and Tick Awareness
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Popular Articles
>>>>
>>>> Baby Bandit and the Treadmill
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> How Did Pit Bulls Get Such a Bad Rap?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What Does Your Dog Breed Say About You?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> How Daddy Chose Junior
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> How to Be Calm and Assertive
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Change of Heart Pit Bull Rescue
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> DOG TRAINING
>>>> Fake Service Dogs, Real Problem
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> By Brian Fischler
>>>>
>>>> The Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) website defines service
>>>> animals
>> as dogs that are individually trained to do work or perform tasks for
>> people
>> with disabilities. That’s a very clear, concise definition.
>>>>
>>>> So why does an online ad elsewhere read, “Identification for your
>>>> service
>> dog will reduce conflict. Get yours before the law changes!”
>>>>
>>>> It’s never surprising what you can find for sale online. A Google
>>>> search
>> produced a multitude of different service/emotional dog kits for sale
>> from
>> several different small companies. These kits will provide tags for your
>> dog
>> claiming they are a service or emotional dog, identification for you and
>> your dog as a service dog, and a service dog vest.
>>>>
>>>> What is shocking is that even major online retailers offer links to
>> companies selling these dog kits. Even more shocking is that anyone can
>> just
>> as easily purchase a harness for their dog of the type that a blind
>> person
>> would use with their guide dog.
>>>>
>>>> It’s hard to comprehend that people would fake a disability to take
>>>> their
>> dog on vacation with them. “I receive plenty of calls from people who do
>> not
>> have disabilities, but are going out of town and need to take their dogs
>> with them. They are looking to find out where they can get
>> certification,”
>> says Jose Lopez, director of communications for The Lighthouse of Broward
>> County, Florida.
>>>>
>>>> Becky Barnes, past president of Guide Dogs Users, Inc., has also
>>>> fielded
>> calls over the years from people looking to get their dogs certified as
>> service dogs. To this, Becky explains, “The best way to get certification
>> is
>> to go through a proper training program. The law does allow for
>> individuals
>> to train their own dogs to be service dogs, but I wouldn’t recommend it,
>> as
>> the individual needs to be matched with the appropriate dog.”
>>>>
>>>> Purchasing a service dog certification or an official looking ID
>>>> through
>> one of these companies doesn’t make your dog a service dog, and these
>> companies are causing havoc for legitimate service dog handlers.
>>>>
>>>> Lopez said, “People with legitimate service dogs are being questioned
>> more than ever, and their fear is that they will have to carry around
>> identification stating their disability.” Barnes added, “Currently, the
>> ADA
>> states that business owners are only allowed to ask if the dog is a
>> service
>> dog, and what they are trained to help with.” The current law doesn’t
>> require service dog handlers to carry around any special identification.
>>>>
>>>> Barnes also added, “I think the fear of service dog handlers is that
>>>> they
>> will be questioned even more. Right now our rights are very clearly
>> stated
>> by the ADA.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Bev Klayman, manager of admission services for Guiding Eyes for the
>>>> Blind
>> has her suspicions about illegitimate service dogs. “I’ve seen dogs with
>> service dog tags misbehaving and acting aggressively in public. The
>> general
>> public cannot differentiate between dogs that have been legitimately
>> trained
>> to be service dogs (and those that have not). These illegitimate service
>> dogs are causing scenes and causing a bad representation of service
>> dogs.”
>>>>
>>>> One area where service dog handlers are running into a lot of trouble
>>>> is
>> with the airlines. With heightened security at airports, service dog
>> handlers are receiving even more scrutiny. On a recent trip to the
>> airport,
>> Becky was told by the clerk at the check-in counter, “That’s not a
>> service
>> dog. Service dogs don’t wag their tails!”
>>>>
>>>> It definitely is never dull for service dog handlers. You never know
>>>> what
>> you will hear next. Considering the times we live in, one would expect to
>> get hassled at the airport, as a little bit of a hassle goes a long way
>> to
>> making us feel safe and secure. So you could imagine Jose Lopez’s
>> surprise
>> on a recent flight when he was flipping through the Sky Mall magazine,
>> and
>> what did he come across? An advertisement in the magazine selling a
>> service
>> dog kit to take your dog with you wherever you go!
>>>>
>>>> Becky Barnes said, “Currently, these companies aren’t breaking any
>>>> laws.
>> “With service dogs there doesn’t seem to be a white and black area but a
>> huge gray area.” She added, “Discussions have begun to make it a
>> misdemeanor
>> to misrepresent your dog as a service dog. Unfortunately, it is being
>> taken
>> as seriously as pirating music.”
>>>>
>>>> [Note: while it is not illegal for companies to sell items to
>>>> identify service dogs, in many states it is illegal for someone to
>>>> pretend to have a protected disability in order to gain access for
>>>> their pet dog in places where it would otherwise be banned. — Ed.]
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Related Stories
>>>>
>>>> Mental Health Service Dogs
>>>> Famous Pit Bulls: Helen Keller’s Pit Bull Sir Thomas
>>>>
>>>> Post Office Honors Service Dogs with Stamp Series
>>>>
>>>> Publish Date: September 19 2012
>>>> Tags: Leadership, Dog Training, Americans with Disabilities Act,
>>>> dogs, fake service dog, service dogs, Training
>>>>
>>>> LEAVE COMMENTS
>>>>
>>>> Company Information
>>>> Privacy Policy
>>>> Terms of Use
>>>> Affiliate Program
>>>> Advertising Information
>>>> Help
>>>> Store Policies
>>>> FAQ
>>>> Illusion Collar FAQ
>>>> Contact
>>>> Subscribe to Free Newsletter
>>>> Subscribe to Magazine
>>>> We'd like to thank our sponsors
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Copyright 2013 Cesar Millan, Inc. All rights reserved.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nagdu:
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/buddy%40brannan.na
>>>> me
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nagdu mailing list
>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nagdu:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/tami%40poodlemutt.c
>>> om
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nagdu mailing list
>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nagdu:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/blind411%40verizon.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nagdu mailing list
>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nagdu:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/tami%40poodlemutt.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/debbieanne1124%40gmail.com
>




More information about the NAGDU mailing list