[nagdu] [NAGDU] ownership RE: Guide Dog Schools

Raven Tolliver ravend729 at gmail.com
Fri Nov 1 13:07:43 UTC 2013


Mike, schools cannot afford to give out pets. But the other side of
the coin is people unjustly having their guide dogs repossessed. I say
we push for the lesser of two evils, which is give full ownership upon
graduation, and risk giving out pets for the sake of guide dog
handlers not having dogs wrongfully repossessed.
I have heard of and seen several instances where a guide dog was
wrongfully repossessed. A buddy of mine had his guide dog repossessed
because she was having chronic ear infections under his care. For
three months, he communicated back and forth with the school to try to
straighten out the problem, but they wanted the dog back because they
did not want the reputation of issuing unhealthy dogs.
Now, that is just wrong on so many levels. Rather than work with him
to resolve the issue and keep his hardworking partner, they wanted to
cover their own ass. This shows a complete lack of trust, and it also
shows that they do not value their clients. An issue this minor is
something that can be resolved over time with a bit of research and
collaboration. But instead of concerning themselves with offering
guidance and assistance  to a graduate, they were worried about their
own reputation!
Why would you bother to give someone a dog if you questioned their
ability to properly work and care for the animal? Perhaps schools
should do more to get to know potential clients and their lifestyles
before placing dogs with people. That is a better solution than giving
us dogs, then monitoring us like parents to make sure we're doing
everything according to the school's standards, and taking away dogs
when we make mistakes or are having problems.

On 11/1/13, Julie J. <julielj at neb.rr.com> wrote:
> I think ownership might encourage the school to do a better job of matching
>
> dogs.  Also I'm thinking transferring ownership to the handler might get the
>
> school to do a very thorough job of investigating the student before giving
>
> them a dog.  That should cut down on the number of people who aren't suited
>
> to a guide dog getting one in the first place.
>
> It would be interesting to compare schools with ownership to those who never
>
> give ownership to see the differences in these factors.
>
> Julie
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mike
> Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 6:20 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] [NAGDU] ownership RE: Guide Dog Schools
>
> A lot of time and money gets infested into producing a guide dog. Its silly
>
> to try and pressure companies into giving complete ownership to the handler.
>
> If it doesn't work out in six months or a year or even two then, depending
> on reason, that dog could go back to the company and eventually go help
> someone else.
> Why turn such an investment into someone's pet when it could be so much more
>
> for someone else.
> I personally don't agree with the bill of rights. People should just
> understand their school of choice. Its not our decision. Its theirs  as a
> business. If we as consumers don't like it then we have other schools to
> pick from.
> If i ran a school id probably do the same thing. Its protecting an
> investment and smaller schools cant afford to hand out pets.
> JMO
>
> Mike
>
>> On Oct 31, 2013, at 9:45 PM, "Michael Hingson" <info at michaelhingson.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hannah,
>>
>> The problem is that what we define as full ownership is not what the
>> schools
>> usually mean.  The Seeing Eye is an organization that provides ownership.
>>
>> I
>> am not as familiar with Pilot, but Chantel indicates that Pilot also does
>> give ownership.
>>
>> Other schools have different contracts that may or may not grant full
>> ownership, and that may require that if a guide retires within some
>> length
>> of time the school may demand that the guide be returned for retraining
>> or
>> for some other purpose.  NAGDU has passed resolutions calling on all
>> schools
>> to provide full ownership of guide dogs upon graduation, and that same
>> position is stated in NAGDU's Guide Dog Consumer Bill of Rights.  Most
>> guide
>> dog schools are living in the past and are as a result paternalistic to
>> one
>> degree or another.  They do not see the tide of aware consumers which is
>> turning against them and which is demanding the same rights given to
>> other
>> citizens in other training situations.
>>
>>
>> Best,
>>
>>
>> Michael Hingson
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Hannah
>> Chadwick
>> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 7:22 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Subject: [nagdu] ownership RE: Guide Dog Schools
>>
>> Chantel,
>> Thank you for the correction.
>> Can someone please define complete ownership when it comes to guide dogs?
>>
>> I
>> mean, if we get complete ownership, then doesn't that mean I'd get to
>> keep
>> the dog no matter the age when that dog stops working? I'm just curious
>> since I was told that I had to send my dog back to the school because she
>> didn't work out but she was only 3.
>> Thank you, hannah
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chantel
>> Cuddemi
>> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 7:08 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Schools
>>
>> Hanna,
>>
>> Pilot Dogs gives us graduates full ownership of our dogs upon graduation
>> from the program.
>>
>> Hope that helped,
>>
>> Chantel and Motley of Pilot Dogs.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Hannah
>> Chadwick
>> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 7:56 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Schools
>>
>> Yes, GDB can provide more financial help if needed.  I think that larger
>> schools tend to have more follow-up services because they have more funds
>>
>> as
>> well as trainers.  I don't think Pilot gives complete ownership, but I
>> could
>> be wrong since that wasn't one of my concerns when I applied.  Pilot also
>> trains boxers and Dobermans in addition to what Raven mentioned.
>> On one hand I think that it is important to have a breed preference, but
>> on
>> the other, I think it is the training that matters the most.  There are
>> good
>> things and bad things about every breed of dog.  The work you put in is
>> what
>> you will get out.  The more effort you put into your dog will mean more
>> success with your team.  When you get your dog, please remember that the
>> bonding process takes between 6 months and a year.  As in my earlier
>> email,
>> please feel free to email me off list if you want to know about Pilot or
>> Guide Dogs for the Blind.
>> Good luck, Hannah and Spritzie
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Raven Tolliver <ravend729 at gmail.com
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org Date sent: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 19:39:50 -0400
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Schools
>>
>> Hi,
>> I attended Guiding Eyes for the Blind primarily because I wanted an adult
>> dog.  As a person who never owned or handled a dog before, I thought it
>> important to have a dog that was physically and mentally mature, and had
>> established mannerisms.  I wanted a golden retriever, and goldens and
>> German
>> shepherds have a better work ethic as adults.
>> This has been proven in studies of guide dog programs and service dog
>> programs.
>> I also chose GEB because of the financial assistance.  Students are
>> allotted
>> $200 annually, and if your dog is 10 pounds within their target weight,
>> the
>> student is given another $100.  There is also an emergency fund, but it
>> can
>> only be used once during a particular dog's career.  The GDB grads can
>> correct me if I'm wrong, but I think GDB gives more financial assistance
>> than this.  Grads from that program can explain the logistics better.
>> As far as what breed of dog is best at guide work, that depends on the
>> person.  I have always adored the gentle nature and laid-back temperament
>>
>> of
>> a golden, and I would not want to live with the high energy and
>> quirkiness
>> of a typical labrador.  German shepherds are very serious about their
>> work,
>> but they have high energy requirements.
>> All
>> three breeds are extremely loving, loyal and obedient if you bond with
>> them
>> properly.  All three breeds have double coats, so they both shed a lot.
>> I
>> do not know as much about the other breeds put out by Pilot dogs, but
>> people
>> have success with them, so you would have to ask the handlers of poodles,
>> dobermans, and Vieszlas.
>> You have to decide for yourself what you like or don't like in a dog.
>> And the personality is just as, if not more, important than breed.
>> Also, know that if you are picky about breed that it may take longer to
>> find
>> you the right dog and get a class date.  I was fortunate that my golden
>> was
>> available so soon after I applied, but I knew that being choosy might mean
>>
>> a
>> longer wait.
>> To determine which school might be right for you, you should rate the
>> following factors by importance  to you.
>> location of school, home-training program, special needs program, cost of
>> the program, length of program, financial assistance, follow up services,
>> ownership policy, training methods, choice to meet and keep in touch with
>> your dog's puppy-raisers, graduation ceremony, breeds offered, life stage
>>
>> of
>> dogs issued These are just what I can think of for now, but there are
>> more
>> factors that others will bring to your attention.
>> If ownership is important to you, the Seeing Eye, Pilot Dogs, or Guide
>> Dogs
>> of America are options.  If you don't understand why ownership is
>> important
>> to some people, then I will explain upon request, because it is a very
>> serious issue that every service dog handler should have proper
>> understanding of.
>> If home-training is important to you this is offered by Fidelco, Guiding
>> Eyes, and a couple other programs.  Guiding Eyes usually does
>> home-training
>> with returning graduates, but they have been known to approve it for
>> first
>> time trainees.
>> I would encourage you to complete your training with your first guide dog
>>
>> at
>> the school if it is at all possible and convenient for you.  The benefit
>> is
>> that you will not likely feel alone in the struggles you will experience,
>> and also, you can get great training and doggie care tips from
>> experienced
>> guide dog handlers.  In addition, you could develop long standing
>> relationships with other classmates, which was a plus for me.
>> Good luck, and email me off list if you want to know more about my
>> Guiding
>> Eyes experience.
>>
>>
>> On 10/31/13, Shickeytha Chandler <shickeytha at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Thank you all for your responses.  I have actually been leaning toward  a
>> lab or a golden because I have heard in the past that those types of
>> dogs
>> are very loyal and have an even temperament.  But at the same  time, I
>> want
>> to have an open mind and consider what other types of  dogs might have to
>> offer.  By the way, I love the names of all three of  your dogs.  Great
>> dog
>> names!
>>
>> On 10/31/13, minh ha <minh.ha927 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi Shickeytha,
>>
>> I want to echo what Hannah said in her email.  I am working with my
>> first
>> guide, Viva from Guide Dogs for the Blind on their Oregon  campus.  As a
>> college student, financial and post-graduation support  were the two most
>> critical aspects that I was looking for in a guide  dog school.  I felt
>> like
>> GDB provided both of these and I really liked  their positive training
>> methods as well as the respectful way they  treat their handlers.
>> Regarding
>> the breed of dog, I think that  ultimately needs to be your decision.
>> Each
>> individual has their  preference and people are going to tell you their
>> choice is the best.
>> GDB only works with labs and golden retrievers.  My girl is a lab and I
>> couldn't have asked for a better dog; she's extremely energetic and
>> playful,
>> but she's an excellent worker once the harness goes on.
>>
>> Minh
>>
>> On 10/31/13, Chantel Cuddemi <jawsgirl87 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Welcome to the  list!
>>
>> I am working my first dog from Pilot Dogs, a standard poodle named
>> Motley!
>>
>> We've been a team for a year and eight months.
>>
>> Good luck with what school you choose!
>>
>> Chantel and Motley.
>>
>> On 10/31/13, Hannah Chadwick <sparklylicious at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hey,
>> Welcome to the list.  I'm working my second guide, Spritz.  She  is from
>> Guide Dogs for the Blind.  She is a black lab; I got her  over the
>> summer.
>> Since I'm a college student and having had a previous dog that  was very
>> high-maintenance, I knew I would need financial  assistance and after
>> support.  Those were two of the major things  I looked for when I applied
>>
>> to
>> schools.  The training methods  (positive vs negative) used in schools
>> also
>> mattered to me.  Of  course which may vary on an individual and team
>> basis,
>> but I've  come to realize that food rewards go a long way.  My first dog
>> was
>> from Pilot because I wanted a poodle, but she retired after  almost a
>> year.
>> My training experience at Pilot was good, but I  wasn't as experienced so
>>
>> I
>> didn't have the necessary tools to  manage such a high-strung dog.
>> Please
>> email me off-list if you  have further questions.
>> Good luck with the application process  and all that.
>> Best, Hannah and Spritz
>>  ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Shickeytha Chandler <shickeytha at gmail.com
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog  Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org  Date sent: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 14:08:20 -0400
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Schools
>>
>> No problem.  I understand that different people have different
>> experiences
>> and perspectives, and I think it is important to  consider  both positive
>> and negative.  Thanks.
>>
>> On 10/31/13, Mike <blinkin4342 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>  As a Fidelco client I completely disagree with the statement  that
>> Fidelco
>>  has contract issues.  The issues are definitely personal and not
>> Fidelco's
>>  fault.
>>  I have had nothing but good experiences with Fidelco over the  last
>> three
>>  years and I know a lot of people who feel the same way.  There  are a
>> certain
>>  handful of folks on this list who have personal issues with  Fidelco and
>> tend
>>  to be much louder than the people who have good experiences.
>>  You should definitely read the contract to make sure you are  aware of
>> the
>>  rules.  That is the case with any guy dog school.  Just keep an  open
>> mind.
>>  Every school has good and bad things.  Every school has someone  who
>> loves
>>  them and hates them.  I'd recommend that you decide what breed  you
>> want,
>> see
>>  what school meets your needs the best, and go forward from  there.
>>
>>
>>  Mike
>>
>>  On Oct 31, 2013, at 12:18 PM, "Larry D.  Keeler"
>> <lkeeler at comcast.net
>>  wrote:
>>
>>  First, watch out for Fidelco! They have contract issues.
>> Before
>> you
>>  decide, make sure you read and understand the contract.  The  other
>> thing,
>>  schools when possible do give you a choice.  Now always can they
>> accomidate
>>  but usually they can.  I went to Pilot because I wanted a  poodle.  They
>>  breed them down there.  However, I ended up qith a labradoodle  wich is
>>  almost as good! As for training at school or at home, I think it  would
>> be
>>  more useful to train at hom.  But, if you know your  neighborhood, it
>>  doesn't matter as much.
>>  ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shickeytha Chandler"
>>  <shickeytha at gmail.com
>>  To: <nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>  Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 11:44 AM
>>  Subject: [nagdu] Guide Dog Schools
>>
>>
>>  Hello all,
>>
>>  I am new to the list.  I currently travel with a cane, but am  very
>>  seriously considering getting a guide dog in the near future.
>> I
>> am
>>  doing research on guide dog schools to see which might be best  for me.
>>  I am considering Fidelco, Guiding Eyes and the Seeing Eye.
>> Does
>> anyone
>>  on this list have either particularly positive or especially  negative
>>  experiences with any of these schools? If so, I would be  interested to
>>  hear your feedback.  Also, I noticed that Fidelco does training  at your
>>  residence, whereas the other schools bring you to their campuses  for
>>  training.  I would like to hear perspectives about the  disadvantages
>>  and advantages of each of these methods of training.
>>
>>  Finally, I know that various types of dogs are trained as  guides,
>>  ranging from labs to German Shepherds.  I would like to know if  schools
>>  give you a choice as to what type of dog you are paired with.
>> Also, I
>>  would be interested to hear from anyone who has worked with dogs  of
>>  various kinds; I'd like to know your thoughts as to whether  there are
>>  distinct qualities that one breed possesses that another breed  does
>>  not generally possess.  Of course, I am sure all dogs are  unique, even
>>  within a breed type.
>>
>>  I know that is a lot of questions for one email.  Thanks in  advance for
>>  any insight that you can provide.
>>
>>  Shickeytha
>>
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>> --
>> "All men dream, but not equally.  Those who dream by night in the dusty
>> recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was
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