[nagdu] [NAGDU] ownership RE: Guide Dog Schools
Nicole Torcolini
ntorcolini at wavecable.com
Sat Nov 2 03:06:20 UTC 2013
Raven hit the nail right on the head:
"Why would you bother to give someone a dog if you questioned their ability
to properly work and care for the animal?"
If the dog does not work out, then the handler should have some say in what
happens to the dog. Yes, I agree that the handler could be encouraged to
return the dog for evaluation for placement with someone else if the dog is
under a certain age, but the handler should then be told what happens to the
dog and also have the choice of taking the dog back as a pet if it does not
work out. Also, the flip side of this is that, if the person plans to get
another dog soon, keeping the other dog as a pet may not be such a good idea
because of jealousy and confusion between the two dogs.
I think that the only two times that a school should be able to take a dog
is if the handler is abusing or neglecting the dog or if the dog is very
clearly not able to guide but the handler still insists on working the dog.
In the case of neglect or abuse, I think that it should be some third party
that investigates and ultimately removes the dog so that there is not any
bias by the school. The second case, of course, is often hard to define and
is often misinterpreted by the schools.
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Raven Tolliver
Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 6:08 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] [NAGDU] ownership RE: Guide Dog Schools
Mike, schools cannot afford to give out pets. But the other side of the coin
is people unjustly having their guide dogs repossessed. I say we push for
the lesser of two evils, which is give full ownership upon graduation, and
risk giving out pets for the sake of guide dog handlers not having dogs
wrongfully repossessed.
I have heard of and seen several instances where a guide dog was wrongfully
repossessed. A buddy of mine had his guide dog repossessed because she was
having chronic ear infections under his care. For three months, he
communicated back and forth with the school to try to straighten out the
problem, but they wanted the dog back because they did not want the
reputation of issuing unhealthy dogs.
Now, that is just wrong on so many levels. Rather than work with him to
resolve the issue and keep his hardworking partner, they wanted to cover
their own ass. This shows a complete lack of trust, and it also shows that
they do not value their clients. An issue this minor is something that can
be resolved over time with a bit of research and collaboration. But instead
of concerning themselves with offering guidance and assistance to a
graduate, they were worried about their own reputation!
Why would you bother to give someone a dog if you questioned their ability
to properly work and care for the animal? Perhaps schools should do more to
get to know potential clients and their lifestyles before placing dogs with
people. That is a better solution than giving us dogs, then monitoring us
like parents to make sure we're doing everything according to the school's
standards, and taking away dogs when we make mistakes or are having
problems.
On 11/1/13, Julie J. <julielj at neb.rr.com> wrote:
> I think ownership might encourage the school to do a better job of
> matching
>
> dogs. Also I'm thinking transferring ownership to the handler might
> get the
>
> school to do a very thorough job of investigating the student before
> giving
>
> them a dog. That should cut down on the number of people who aren't
> suited
>
> to a guide dog getting one in the first place.
>
> It would be interesting to compare schools with ownership to those who
> never
>
> give ownership to see the differences in these factors.
>
> Julie
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mike
> Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 6:20 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] [NAGDU] ownership RE: Guide Dog Schools
>
> A lot of time and money gets infested into producing a guide dog. Its
> silly
>
> to try and pressure companies into giving complete ownership to the
handler.
>
> If it doesn't work out in six months or a year or even two then,
> depending on reason, that dog could go back to the company and
> eventually go help someone else.
> Why turn such an investment into someone's pet when it could be so
> much more
>
> for someone else.
> I personally don't agree with the bill of rights. People should just
> understand their school of choice. Its not our decision. Its theirs
> as a business. If we as consumers don't like it then we have other
> schools to pick from.
> If i ran a school id probably do the same thing. Its protecting an
> investment and smaller schools cant afford to hand out pets.
> JMO
>
> Mike
>
>> On Oct 31, 2013, at 9:45 PM, "Michael Hingson"
>> <info at michaelhingson.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hannah,
>>
>> The problem is that what we define as full ownership is not what the
>> schools usually mean. The Seeing Eye is an organization that
>> provides ownership.
>>
>> I
>> am not as familiar with Pilot, but Chantel indicates that Pilot also
>> does give ownership.
>>
>> Other schools have different contracts that may or may not grant full
>> ownership, and that may require that if a guide retires within some
>> length of time the school may demand that the guide be returned for
>> retraining or for some other purpose. NAGDU has passed resolutions
>> calling on all schools to provide full ownership of guide dogs upon
>> graduation, and that same position is stated in NAGDU's Guide Dog
>> Consumer Bill of Rights. Most guide dog schools are living in the
>> past and are as a result paternalistic to one degree or another.
>> They do not see the tide of aware consumers which is turning against
>> them and which is demanding the same rights given to other citizens
>> in other training situations.
>>
>>
>> Best,
>>
>>
>> Michael Hingson
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Hannah
>> Chadwick
>> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 7:22 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Subject: [nagdu] ownership RE: Guide Dog Schools
>>
>> Chantel,
>> Thank you for the correction.
>> Can someone please define complete ownership when it comes to guide dogs?
>>
>> I
>> mean, if we get complete ownership, then doesn't that mean I'd get to
>> keep the dog no matter the age when that dog stops working? I'm just
>> curious since I was told that I had to send my dog back to the school
>> because she didn't work out but she was only 3.
>> Thank you, hannah
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chantel
>> Cuddemi
>> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 7:08 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Schools
>>
>> Hanna,
>>
>> Pilot Dogs gives us graduates full ownership of our dogs upon
>> graduation from the program.
>>
>> Hope that helped,
>>
>> Chantel and Motley of Pilot Dogs.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Hannah
>> Chadwick
>> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 7:56 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Schools
>>
>> Yes, GDB can provide more financial help if needed. I think that
>> larger schools tend to have more follow-up services because they have
>> more funds
>>
>> as
>> well as trainers. I don't think Pilot gives complete ownership, but
>> I could be wrong since that wasn't one of my concerns when I applied.
>> Pilot also trains boxers and Dobermans in addition to what Raven
>> mentioned.
>> On one hand I think that it is important to have a breed preference,
>> but on the other, I think it is the training that matters the most.
>> There are good things and bad things about every breed of dog. The
>> work you put in is what you will get out. The more effort you put
>> into your dog will mean more success with your team. When you get
>> your dog, please remember that the bonding process takes between 6
>> months and a year. As in my earlier email, please feel free to email
>> me off list if you want to know about Pilot or Guide Dogs for the
>> Blind.
>> Good luck, Hannah and Spritzie
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Raven Tolliver <ravend729 at gmail.com
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org Date sent: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 19:39:50 -0400
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Schools
>>
>> Hi,
>> I attended Guiding Eyes for the Blind primarily because I wanted an
>> adult dog. As a person who never owned or handled a dog before, I
>> thought it important to have a dog that was physically and mentally
>> mature, and had established mannerisms. I wanted a golden retriever,
>> and goldens and German shepherds have a better work ethic as adults.
>> This has been proven in studies of guide dog programs and service dog
>> programs.
>> I also chose GEB because of the financial assistance. Students are
>> allotted $200 annually, and if your dog is 10 pounds within their
>> target weight, the student is given another $100. There is also an
>> emergency fund, but it can only be used once during a particular
>> dog's career. The GDB grads can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think
>> GDB gives more financial assistance than this. Grads from that
>> program can explain the logistics better.
>> As far as what breed of dog is best at guide work, that depends on
>> the person. I have always adored the gentle nature and laid-back
>> temperament
>>
>> of
>> a golden, and I would not want to live with the high energy and
>> quirkiness of a typical labrador. German shepherds are very serious
>> about their work, but they have high energy requirements.
>> All
>> three breeds are extremely loving, loyal and obedient if you bond
>> with them properly. All three breeds have double coats, so they both
>> shed a lot.
>> I
>> do not know as much about the other breeds put out by Pilot dogs, but
>> people have success with them, so you would have to ask the handlers
>> of poodles, dobermans, and Vieszlas.
>> You have to decide for yourself what you like or don't like in a dog.
>> And the personality is just as, if not more, important than breed.
>> Also, know that if you are picky about breed that it may take longer
>> to find you the right dog and get a class date. I was fortunate that
>> my golden was available so soon after I applied, but I knew that
>> being choosy might mean
>>
>> a
>> longer wait.
>> To determine which school might be right for you, you should rate the
>> following factors by importance to you.
>> location of school, home-training program, special needs program,
>> cost of the program, length of program, financial assistance, follow
>> up services, ownership policy, training methods, choice to meet and
>> keep in touch with your dog's puppy-raisers, graduation ceremony,
>> breeds offered, life stage
>>
>> of
>> dogs issued These are just what I can think of for now, but there are
>> more factors that others will bring to your attention.
>> If ownership is important to you, the Seeing Eye, Pilot Dogs, or
>> Guide Dogs of America are options. If you don't understand why
>> ownership is important to some people, then I will explain upon
>> request, because it is a very serious issue that every service dog
>> handler should have proper understanding of.
>> If home-training is important to you this is offered by Fidelco,
>> Guiding Eyes, and a couple other programs. Guiding Eyes usually does
>> home-training with returning graduates, but they have been known to
>> approve it for first time trainees.
>> I would encourage you to complete your training with your first guide
>> dog
>>
>> at
>> the school if it is at all possible and convenient for you. The
>> benefit is that you will not likely feel alone in the struggles you
>> will experience, and also, you can get great training and doggie care
>> tips from experienced guide dog handlers. In addition, you could
>> develop long standing relationships with other classmates, which was
>> a plus for me.
>> Good luck, and email me off list if you want to know more about my
>> Guiding Eyes experience.
>>
>>
>> On 10/31/13, Shickeytha Chandler <shickeytha at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Thank you all for your responses. I have actually been leaning
>> toward a lab or a golden because I have heard in the past that those
>> types of dogs are very loyal and have an even temperament. But at
>> the same time, I want to have an open mind and consider what other
>> types of dogs might have to offer. By the way, I love the names of
>> all three of your dogs. Great dog names!
>>
>> On 10/31/13, minh ha <minh.ha927 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi Shickeytha,
>>
>> I want to echo what Hannah said in her email. I am working with my
>> first guide, Viva from Guide Dogs for the Blind on their Oregon
>> campus. As a college student, financial and post-graduation support
>> were the two most critical aspects that I was looking for in a guide
>> dog school. I felt like GDB provided both of these and I really
>> liked their positive training methods as well as the respectful way
>> they treat their handlers.
>> Regarding
>> the breed of dog, I think that ultimately needs to be your decision.
>> Each
>> individual has their preference and people are going to tell you
>> their choice is the best.
>> GDB only works with labs and golden retrievers. My girl is a lab and
>> I couldn't have asked for a better dog; she's extremely energetic and
>> playful, but she's an excellent worker once the harness goes on.
>>
>> Minh
>>
>> On 10/31/13, Chantel Cuddemi <jawsgirl87 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Welcome to the list!
>>
>> I am working my first dog from Pilot Dogs, a standard poodle named
>> Motley!
>>
>> We've been a team for a year and eight months.
>>
>> Good luck with what school you choose!
>>
>> Chantel and Motley.
>>
>> On 10/31/13, Hannah Chadwick <sparklylicious at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hey,
>> Welcome to the list. I'm working my second guide, Spritz. She is
>> from Guide Dogs for the Blind. She is a black lab; I got her over
>> the summer.
>> Since I'm a college student and having had a previous dog that was
>> very high-maintenance, I knew I would need financial assistance and
>> after support. Those were two of the major things I looked for when
>> I applied
>>
>> to
>> schools. The training methods (positive vs negative) used in
>> schools also mattered to me. Of course which may vary on an
>> individual and team basis, but I've come to realize that food
>> rewards go a long way. My first dog was from Pilot because I wanted
>> a poodle, but she retired after almost a year.
>> My training experience at Pilot was good, but I wasn't as
>> experienced so
>>
>> I
>> didn't have the necessary tools to manage such a high-strung dog.
>> Please
>> email me off-list if you have further questions.
>> Good luck with the application process and all that.
>> Best, Hannah and Spritz
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Shickeytha Chandler <shickeytha at gmail.com
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org Date sent: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 14:08:20 -0400
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Schools
>>
>> No problem. I understand that different people have different
>> experiences and perspectives, and I think it is important to
>> consider both positive and negative. Thanks.
>>
>> On 10/31/13, Mike <blinkin4342 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> As a Fidelco client I completely disagree with the statement that
>> Fidelco has contract issues. The issues are definitely personal and
>> not Fidelco's fault.
>> I have had nothing but good experiences with Fidelco over the last
>> three years and I know a lot of people who feel the same way. There
>> are a certain handful of folks on this list who have personal issues
>> with Fidelco and tend to be much louder than the people who have
>> good experiences.
>> You should definitely read the contract to make sure you are aware
>> of the rules. That is the case with any guy dog school. Just keep
>> an open mind.
>> Every school has good and bad things. Every school has someone who
>> loves them and hates them. I'd recommend that you decide what breed
>> you want, see what school meets your needs the best, and go forward
>> from there.
>>
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> On Oct 31, 2013, at 12:18 PM, "Larry D. Keeler"
>> <lkeeler at comcast.net
>> wrote:
>>
>> First, watch out for Fidelco! They have contract issues.
>> Before
>> you
>> decide, make sure you read and understand the contract. The other
>> thing, schools when possible do give you a choice. Now always can
>> they accomidate but usually they can. I went to Pilot because I
>> wanted a poodle. They breed them down there. However, I ended up
>> qith a labradoodle wich is almost as good! As for training at
>> school or at home, I think it would be more useful to train at hom.
>> But, if you know your neighborhood, it doesn't matter as much.
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shickeytha Chandler"
>> <shickeytha at gmail.com
>> To: <nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 11:44 AM
>> Subject: [nagdu] Guide Dog Schools
>>
>>
>> Hello all,
>>
>> I am new to the list. I currently travel with a cane, but am very
>> seriously considering getting a guide dog in the near future.
>> I
>> am
>> doing research on guide dog schools to see which might be best for me.
>> I am considering Fidelco, Guiding Eyes and the Seeing Eye.
>> Does
>> anyone
>> on this list have either particularly positive or especially negative
>> experiences with any of these schools? If so, I would be interested to
>> hear your feedback. Also, I noticed that Fidelco does training at your
>> residence, whereas the other schools bring you to their campuses for
>> training. I would like to hear perspectives about the disadvantages
>> and advantages of each of these methods of training.
>>
>> Finally, I know that various types of dogs are trained as guides,
>> ranging from labs to German Shepherds. I would like to know if schools
>> give you a choice as to what type of dog you are paired with.
>> Also, I
>> would be interested to hear from anyone who has worked with dogs of
>> various kinds; I'd like to know your thoughts as to whether there are
>> distinct qualities that one breed possesses that another breed does
>> not generally possess. Of course, I am sure all dogs are unique, even
>> within a breed type.
>>
>> I know that is a lot of questions for one email. Thanks in advance for
>> any insight that you can provide.
>>
>> Shickeytha
>>
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>> --
>> "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty
>> recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was
>> vanity:
>> but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their
>> dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E.
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>> --
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