[nagdu] Ownership and Other Agreements was Guide Dog Schools

Sat Nov 2 18:09:38 UTC 2013

Chantel,
	I have heard from others that Pilot says they transfer ownership,
but I have not seen any documentation concerning this. If anyone has such
documentation, I would appreciate sending it to me. Others have sent me the
agreements of other programs and I have deleted the source of this
information. Correspondence can be sent to 

president at nagdu.org

Fraternally yours,
Marion Gwizdala

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chantel Cuddemi
Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2013 1:14 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Ownership and Other Agreements was Guide Dog Schools

Hi,

I remember my trainer at Pilot Dogs reading the written agreement to us in
class, and the head trainer explained that what the written paper states is
that we have full ownership of our dogs upon graduation . 

The only time, the paper said, that ownership reverts back to Pilot is if
the dog is sent back to be reissued or if the dog is being abused or
neglected. 

I wish I could help you see this, but I don't know how to do so... 

Chantel and Motley.

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of National
Association of Guide Dog Users
Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 10:41 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Ownership and Other Agreements was Guide Dog Schools

Chantel,
	Though you may have been told this, the fact of the matter is that
such an agreement, if not in writing, does not exist. Though it is true that
verbal agreements are binding, written agreements preempt any verbal
agreement. It might be a good thing to read the agreement to see what it
states concerning this.

Fraternally yours,
Marion Gwizdala

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chantel Cuddemi
Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 3:16 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Ownership and Other Agreements was Guide Dog Schools

Hi,

The copy of my agreement is in print, and I don't have any way to scan it in
to a readable document. 

I was told by other Pilot grads that we do have full ownership of our dogs
upon graduation. 

Chantel and Motley.

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of National
Association of Guide Dog Users
Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 12:24 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: [nagdu] Ownership and Other Agreements was Guide Dog Schools

Chantel,
	It is my understanding that Pilot does not transfer ownership upon
completion of training. Do you have a copy of the Pilot agreement concerning
this? As was stated on this list a little earlier, there are those who would
share misinformation about the training programs and, in an effort to
provide accurate information from an objective point of view, I would like
to see the agreements from the training programs. NAGDU has requested this
information from each of the programs and the only ones that were
cooperative were the Guide Dog Foundation and Guide Dogs of America. I do
have the Fidelco agreement, as posted to the list; however, this was given
to me by a consumer, not by Fidelco. I know it is a true representation of
the agreement, as other Fidelco consumers have shared their agreements with
me and they are identical.

	It is my contention that, if the training programs feel confident
with their agreements, they should be willing to share them with
representative consumer organization in the interest of transparency and
accountability. Failing this, it would be great if consumers would share
their agreements with us.

Fraternally yours,

Marion Gwizdala, President
National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc.
National Federation of the Blind
(813) 626-2789 (Office)
888-NAGDU411 (Hotline
President at nagdu.org
www.nagdu.org

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chantel Cuddemi
Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 10:08 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Schools

Hanna,

Pilot Dogs gives us graduates full ownership of our dogs upon graduation
from the program.

Hope that helped,

Chantel and Motley of Pilot Dogs.

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Hannah Chadwick
Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 7:56 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Schools

Yes, GDB can provide more financial help if needed.  I think that larger
schools tend to have more follow-up services because they have more funds as
well as trainers.  I don't think Pilot gives complete ownership, but I could
be wrong since that wasn't one of my concerns when I applied.  Pilot also
trains boxers and Dobermans in addition to what Raven mentioned.
On one hand I think that it is important to have a breed preference, but on
the other, I think it is the training that matters the most.  There are good
things and bad things about every breed of dog.  The work you put in is what
you will get out.  The more effort you put into your dog will mean more
success with your team.  When you get your dog, please remember that the
bonding process takes between 6 months and a year.  As in my earlier email,
please feel free to email me off list if you want to know about Pilot or
Guide Dogs for the Blind.
Good luck, Hannah and Spritzie

 ----- Original Message -----
From: Raven Tolliver <ravend729 at gmail.com
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org Date sent: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 19:39:50 -0400
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Schools

Hi,
I attended Guiding Eyes for the Blind primarily because I wanted an adult
dog.  As a person who never owned or handled a dog before, I thought it
important to have a dog that was physically and mentally mature, and had
established mannerisms.  I wanted a golden retriever, and goldens and German
shepherds have a better work ethic as adults.
This has been proven in studies of guide dog programs and service dog
programs.
I also chose GEB because of the financial assistance.  Students are allotted
$200 annually, and if your dog is 10 pounds within their target weight, the
student is given another $100.  There is also an emergency fund, but it can
only be used once during a particular dog's career.  The GDB grads can
correct me if I'm wrong, but I think GDB gives more financial assistance
than this.  Grads from that program can explain the logistics better.
As far as what breed of dog is best at guide work, that depends on the
person.  I have always adored the gentle nature and laid-back temperament of
a golden, and I would not want to live with the high energy and quirkiness
of a typical labrador.  German shepherds are very serious about their work,
but they have high energy requirements.  
All
three breeds are extremely loving, loyal and obedient if you bond with them
properly.  All three breeds have double coats, so they both shed a lot.  I
do not know as much about the other breeds put out by Pilot dogs, but people
have success with them, so you would have to ask the handlers of poodles,
dobermans, and Vieszlas.
You have to decide for yourself what you like or don't like in a dog.
And the personality is just as, if not more, important than breed.
Also, know that if you are picky about breed that it may take longer to find
you the right dog and get a class date.  I was fortunate that my golden was
available so soon after I applied, but I knew that being choosy might mean a
longer wait.
To determine which school might be right for you, you should rate the
following factors by importance  to you.
location of school, home-training program, special needs program, cost of
the program, length of program, financial assistance, follow up services,
ownership policy, training methods, choice to meet and keep in touch with
your dog's puppy-raisers, graduation ceremony, breeds offered, life stage of
dogs issued These are just what I can think of for now, but there are more
factors that others will bring to your attention.
If ownership is important to you, the Seeing Eye, Pilot Dogs, or Guide Dogs
of America are options.  If you don't understand why ownership is important
to some people, then I will explain upon request, because it is a very
serious issue that every service dog handler should have proper
understanding of.
If home-training is important to you this is offered by Fidelco, Guiding
Eyes, and a couple other programs.  Guiding Eyes usually does home-training
with returning graduates, but they have been known to approve it for first
time trainees.
I would encourage you to complete your training with your first guide dog at
the school if it is at all possible and convenient for you.  The benefit is
that you will not likely feel alone in the struggles you will experience,
and also, you can get great training and doggie care tips from experienced
guide dog handlers.  In addition, you could develop long standing
relationships with other classmates, which was a plus for me.
Good luck, and email me off list if you want to know more about my Guiding
Eyes experience.

On 10/31/13, Shickeytha Chandler <shickeytha at gmail.com> wrote:
 Thank you all for your responses.  I have actually been leaning toward  a
lab or a golden because I have heard in the past that those types of  dogs
are very loyal and have an even temperament.  But at the same  time, I want
to have an open mind and consider what other types of  dogs might have to
offer.  By the way, I love the names of all three of  your dogs.  Great dog
names!

 On 10/31/13, minh ha <minh.ha927 at gmail.com> wrote:
 Hi Shickeytha,

 I want to echo what Hannah said in her email.  I am working with my  first
guide, Viva from Guide Dogs for the Blind on their Oregon  campus.  As a
college student, financial and post-graduation support  were the two most
critical aspects that I was looking for in a guide  dog school.  I felt like
GDB provided both of these and I really liked  their positive training
methods as well as the respectful way they  treat their handlers.  Regarding
the breed of dog, I think that  ultimately needs to be your decision.  Each
individual has their  preference and people are going to tell you their
choice is the best.
 GDB only works with labs and golden retrievers.  My girl is a lab and I
couldn't have asked for a better dog; she's extremely energetic and playful,
but she's an excellent worker once the harness goes on.

 Minh

 On 10/31/13, Chantel Cuddemi <jawsgirl87 at gmail.com> wrote:
 Welcome to the  list!

 I am working my first dog from Pilot Dogs, a standard poodle named  Motley!

 We've been a team for a year and eight months.

 Good luck with what school you choose!

 Chantel and Motley.

 On 10/31/13, Hannah Chadwick <sparklylicious at gmail.com> wrote:
 Hey,
 Welcome to the list.  I'm working my second guide, Spritz.  She  is from
Guide Dogs for the Blind.  She is a black lab; I got her  over the summer.
 Since I'm a college student and having had a previous dog that  was very
high-maintenance, I knew I would need financial  assistance and after
support.  Those were two of the major things  I looked for when I applied to
schools.  The training methods  (positive vs negative) used in schools also
mattered to me.  Of  course which may vary on an individual and team basis,
but I've  come to realize that food rewards go a long way.  My first dog was
from Pilot because I wanted a poodle, but she retired after  almost a year.
My training experience at Pilot was good, but I  wasn't as experienced so I
didn't have the necessary tools to  manage such a high-strung dog.  Please
email me off-list if you  have further questions.
Good luck with the application process  and all that.
 Best, Hannah and Spritz
  ----- Original Message -----
 From: Shickeytha Chandler <shickeytha at gmail.com
 To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog  Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org  Date sent: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 14:08:20 -0400
 Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Schools

 No problem.  I understand that different people have different  experiences
and perspectives, and I think it is important to  consider  both positive
and negative.  Thanks.

 On 10/31/13, Mike <blinkin4342 at gmail.com> wrote:
  As a Fidelco client I completely disagree with the statement  that Fidelco
  has contract issues.  The issues are definitely personal and not Fidelco's
  fault.
  I have had nothing but good experiences with Fidelco over the  last three
  years and I know a lot of people who feel the same way.  There  are a
certain
  handful of folks on this list who have personal issues with  Fidelco and
tend
  to be much louder than the people who have good experiences.
  You should definitely read the contract to make sure you are  aware of the
  rules.  That is the case with any guy dog school.  Just keep an  open
mind.
  Every school has good and bad things.  Every school has someone  who loves
  them and hates them.  I'd recommend that you decide what breed  you want,
see
  what school meets your needs the best, and go forward from  there.

  Mike

  On Oct 31, 2013, at 12:18 PM, "Larry D.  Keeler"
 <lkeeler at comcast.net
  wrote:

  First, watch out for Fidelco! They have contract issues.  
Before
 you
  decide, make sure you read and understand the contract.  The  other thing,
  schools when possible do give you a choice.  Now always can they
accomidate
  but usually they can.  I went to Pilot because I wanted a  poodle.  They
  breed them down there.  However, I ended up qith a labradoodle  wich is
  almost as good! As for training at school or at home, I think it  would be
  more useful to train at hom.  But, if you know your  neighborhood, it
  doesn't matter as much.
  ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shickeytha Chandler"
  <shickeytha at gmail.com
  To: <nagdu at nfbnet.org
  Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 11:44 AM
  Subject: [nagdu] Guide Dog Schools

  Hello all,

  I am new to the list.  I currently travel with a cane, but am  very
  seriously considering getting a guide dog in the near future.  
I
 am
  doing research on guide dog schools to see which might be best  for me.
  I am considering Fidelco, Guiding Eyes and the Seeing Eye.  
Does
 anyone
  on this list have either particularly positive or especially  negative
  experiences with any of these schools? If so, I would be  interested to
  hear your feedback.  Also, I noticed that Fidelco does training  at your
  residence, whereas the other schools bring you to their campuses  for
  training.  I would like to hear perspectives about the  disadvantages
  and advantages of each of these methods of training.

  Finally, I know that various types of dogs are trained as  guides,
  ranging from labs to German Shepherds.  I would like to know if  schools
  give you a choice as to what type of dog you are paired with.
 Also, I
  would be interested to hear from anyone who has worked with dogs  of
  various kinds; I'd like to know your thoughts as to whether  there are
  distinct qualities that one breed possesses that another breed  does
  not generally possess.  Of course, I am sure all dogs are  unique, even
  within a breed type.

  I know that is a lot of questions for one email.  Thanks in  advance for
  any insight that you can provide.

  Shickeytha

  _______________________________________________
  nagdu mailing list
  nagdu at nfbnet.org
  http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
  To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account  info for
  nagdu:

http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/lkeeler%40comc
 ast.net

  _______________________________________________
  nagdu mailing list
  nagdu at nfbnet.org
  http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
  To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account  info for
  nagdu:

http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/blinkin4342%40
 gmail.com

  _______________________________________________
  nagdu mailing list
  nagdu at nfbnet.org
  http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
  To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account  info for
  nagdu:

http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/shickeytha%40g
 mail.com

 _______________________________________________
 nagdu mailing list
 nagdu at nfbnet.org
 http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
 To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  for
nagdu:

http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/sparklylicious
 %40gmail.com

 _______________________________________________
 nagdu mailing list
 nagdu at nfbnet.org
 http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
 To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
 nagdu:

http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/jawsgirl87%40g
mail.com

 _______________________________________________
 nagdu mailing list
 nagdu at nfbnet.org
 http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
 To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
 nagdu:

http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40g
mail.com

 --
 "All men dream, but not equally.  Those who dream by night in the dusty
recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was
vanity:
 but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on  their
dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T.  E.  
Lawrence

 _______________________________________________
 nagdu mailing list
 nagdu at nfbnet.org
 http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
 To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
 nagdu:

http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/shickeytha%40g
mail.com

 _______________________________________________
 nagdu mailing list
 nagdu at nfbnet.org
 http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
 To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
 nagdu:

http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/ravend729%40gm
ail.com

--
Raven

_______________________________________________
nagdu mailing list
nagdu at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/sparklylicious
%40gmail.com

_______________________________________________
nagdu mailing list
nagdu at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/jawsgirl87%40gmail.com

_______________________________________________
nagdu mailing list
nagdu at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/blind411%40verizon.net

_______________________________________________
nagdu mailing list
nagdu at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/jawsgirl87%40gmail.com

_______________________________________________
nagdu mailing list
nagdu at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/blind411%40verizon.net

_______________________________________________
nagdu mailing list
nagdu at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/jawsgirl87%40gmail.com

_______________________________________________
nagdu mailing list
nagdu at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/blind411%40verizon.net