[nagdu] Ownership and Other Agreements was Guide Dog Schools
Larry D. Keeler
lkeeler at comcast.net
Sun Nov 3 01:00:08 UTC 2013
Brandy, when did you go to Pilot? I went in August 2008.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brandydp" <brandydp at verizon.net>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Cc: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2013 3:27 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Ownership and Other Agreements was Guide Dog Schools
> If this is true of pilot the four dogs I returned for behavior problems
> should of not been taken then no one reel me what became of them. And I
> lied my best friend, though she made some iffy decisions on living
> situations did have her dog wrongfully taken. Though she had just had a
> baby and someone else was watching and it got out and the school had the
> person return it to them without telling her. Again if they claim to give
> full ownership this would not of been the case. She does take
> responsibility. However the point is when schools give full ownership
> like tse the dog can not be taken so at least in the time I was there they
> did not give full ownership. Also when you own your dogs, as I did at
> gdf, you sign ownership back to the school which I never did with pilot.
> Things could of changed since 08 though
>
> brandy pinder
> Alumni Council - second vice Chairman
> Guide Dog Foundation for the Blind, Inc®
> and America's VetDogs®, The Veteran's K-9 Corps Inc®
> Providing "Second uSight"® since 1946
>
> 371 E. Jericho Turnpike smith town ny 11766
> Cso: 866-282-8047
> Email: brandydp at verizon.net
> Cell: 304-685-4499
>
> On Nov 2, 2013, at 1:14 PM, "Chantel Cuddemi" <jawsgirl87 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I remember my trainer at Pilot Dogs reading the written agreement to us
>> in
>> class, and the head trainer explained that what the written paper states
>> is
>> that we have full ownership of our dogs upon graduation .
>>
>> The only time, the paper said, that ownership reverts back to Pilot is if
>> the dog is sent back to be reissued or if the dog is being abused or
>> neglected.
>>
>> I wish I could help you see this, but I don't know how to do so...
>>
>> Chantel and Motley.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of National
>> Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 10:41 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Ownership and Other Agreements was Guide Dog Schools
>>
>> Chantel,
>> Though you may have been told this, the fact of the matter is that
>> such an agreement, if not in writing, does not exist. Though it is true
>> that
>> verbal agreements are binding, written agreements preempt any verbal
>> agreement. It might be a good thing to read the agreement to see what it
>> states concerning this.
>>
>> Fraternally yours,
>> Marion Gwizdala
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chantel
>> Cuddemi
>> Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 3:16 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Ownership and Other Agreements was Guide Dog Schools
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> The copy of my agreement is in print, and I don't have any way to scan it
>> in
>> to a readable document.
>>
>> I was told by other Pilot grads that we do have full ownership of our
>> dogs
>> upon graduation.
>>
>> Chantel and Motley.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of National
>> Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 12:24 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Subject: [nagdu] Ownership and Other Agreements was Guide Dog Schools
>>
>> Chantel,
>> It is my understanding that Pilot does not transfer ownership upon
>> completion of training. Do you have a copy of the Pilot agreement
>> concerning
>> this? As was stated on this list a little earlier, there are those who
>> would
>> share misinformation about the training programs and, in an effort to
>> provide accurate information from an objective point of view, I would
>> like
>> to see the agreements from the training programs. NAGDU has requested
>> this
>> information from each of the programs and the only ones that were
>> cooperative were the Guide Dog Foundation and Guide Dogs of America. I do
>> have the Fidelco agreement, as posted to the list; however, this was
>> given
>> to me by a consumer, not by Fidelco. I know it is a true representation
>> of
>> the agreement, as other Fidelco consumers have shared their agreements
>> with
>> me and they are identical.
>>
>> It is my contention that, if the training programs feel confident
>> with their agreements, they should be willing to share them with
>> representative consumer organization in the interest of transparency and
>> accountability. Failing this, it would be great if consumers would share
>> their agreements with us.
>>
>> Fraternally yours,
>>
>> Marion Gwizdala, President
>> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc.
>> National Federation of the Blind
>> (813) 626-2789 (Office)
>> 888-NAGDU411 (Hotline
>> President at nagdu.org
>> www.nagdu.org
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chantel
>> Cuddemi
>> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 10:08 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Schools
>>
>> Hanna,
>>
>> Pilot Dogs gives us graduates full ownership of our dogs upon graduation
>> from the program.
>>
>> Hope that helped,
>>
>> Chantel and Motley of Pilot Dogs.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Hannah
>> Chadwick
>> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 7:56 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Schools
>>
>> Yes, GDB can provide more financial help if needed. I think that larger
>> schools tend to have more follow-up services because they have more funds
>> as
>> well as trainers. I don't think Pilot gives complete ownership, but I
>> could
>> be wrong since that wasn't one of my concerns when I applied. Pilot also
>> trains boxers and Dobermans in addition to what Raven mentioned.
>> On one hand I think that it is important to have a breed preference, but
>> on
>> the other, I think it is the training that matters the most. There are
>> good
>> things and bad things about every breed of dog. The work you put in is
>> what
>> you will get out. The more effort you put into your dog will mean more
>> success with your team. When you get your dog, please remember that the
>> bonding process takes between 6 months and a year. As in my earlier
>> email,
>> please feel free to email me off list if you want to know about Pilot or
>> Guide Dogs for the Blind.
>> Good luck, Hannah and Spritzie
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Raven Tolliver <ravend729 at gmail.com
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org Date sent: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 19:39:50 -0400
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Schools
>>
>> Hi,
>> I attended Guiding Eyes for the Blind primarily because I wanted an adult
>> dog. As a person who never owned or handled a dog before, I thought it
>> important to have a dog that was physically and mentally mature, and had
>> established mannerisms. I wanted a golden retriever, and goldens and
>> German
>> shepherds have a better work ethic as adults.
>> This has been proven in studies of guide dog programs and service dog
>> programs.
>> I also chose GEB because of the financial assistance. Students are
>> allotted
>> $200 annually, and if your dog is 10 pounds within their target weight,
>> the
>> student is given another $100. There is also an emergency fund, but it
>> can
>> only be used once during a particular dog's career. The GDB grads can
>> correct me if I'm wrong, but I think GDB gives more financial assistance
>> than this. Grads from that program can explain the logistics better.
>> As far as what breed of dog is best at guide work, that depends on the
>> person. I have always adored the gentle nature and laid-back temperament
>> of
>> a golden, and I would not want to live with the high energy and
>> quirkiness
>> of a typical labrador. German shepherds are very serious about their
>> work,
>> but they have high energy requirements.
>> All
>> three breeds are extremely loving, loyal and obedient if you bond with
>> them
>> properly. All three breeds have double coats, so they both shed a lot.
>> I
>> do not know as much about the other breeds put out by Pilot dogs, but
>> people
>> have success with them, so you would have to ask the handlers of poodles,
>> dobermans, and Vieszlas.
>> You have to decide for yourself what you like or don't like in a dog.
>> And the personality is just as, if not more, important than breed.
>> Also, know that if you are picky about breed that it may take longer to
>> find
>> you the right dog and get a class date. I was fortunate that my golden
>> was
>> available so soon after I applied, but I knew that being choosy might
>> mean a
>> longer wait.
>> To determine which school might be right for you, you should rate the
>> following factors by importance to you.
>> location of school, home-training program, special needs program, cost of
>> the program, length of program, financial assistance, follow up services,
>> ownership policy, training methods, choice to meet and keep in touch with
>> your dog's puppy-raisers, graduation ceremony, breeds offered, life stage
>> of
>> dogs issued These are just what I can think of for now, but there are
>> more
>> factors that others will bring to your attention.
>> If ownership is important to you, the Seeing Eye, Pilot Dogs, or Guide
>> Dogs
>> of America are options. If you don't understand why ownership is
>> important
>> to some people, then I will explain upon request, because it is a very
>> serious issue that every service dog handler should have proper
>> understanding of.
>> If home-training is important to you this is offered by Fidelco, Guiding
>> Eyes, and a couple other programs. Guiding Eyes usually does
>> home-training
>> with returning graduates, but they have been known to approve it for
>> first
>> time trainees.
>> I would encourage you to complete your training with your first guide dog
>> at
>> the school if it is at all possible and convenient for you. The benefit
>> is
>> that you will not likely feel alone in the struggles you will experience,
>> and also, you can get great training and doggie care tips from
>> experienced
>> guide dog handlers. In addition, you could develop long standing
>> relationships with other classmates, which was a plus for me.
>> Good luck, and email me off list if you want to know more about my
>> Guiding
>> Eyes experience.
>>
>>
>> On 10/31/13, Shickeytha Chandler <shickeytha at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Thank you all for your responses. I have actually been leaning toward a
>> lab or a golden because I have heard in the past that those types of
>> dogs
>> are very loyal and have an even temperament. But at the same time, I
>> want
>> to have an open mind and consider what other types of dogs might have to
>> offer. By the way, I love the names of all three of your dogs. Great
>> dog
>> names!
>>
>> On 10/31/13, minh ha <minh.ha927 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi Shickeytha,
>>
>> I want to echo what Hannah said in her email. I am working with my
>> first
>> guide, Viva from Guide Dogs for the Blind on their Oregon campus. As a
>> college student, financial and post-graduation support were the two most
>> critical aspects that I was looking for in a guide dog school. I felt
>> like
>> GDB provided both of these and I really liked their positive training
>> methods as well as the respectful way they treat their handlers.
>> Regarding
>> the breed of dog, I think that ultimately needs to be your decision.
>> Each
>> individual has their preference and people are going to tell you their
>> choice is the best.
>> GDB only works with labs and golden retrievers. My girl is a lab and I
>> couldn't have asked for a better dog; she's extremely energetic and
>> playful,
>> but she's an excellent worker once the harness goes on.
>>
>> Minh
>>
>> On 10/31/13, Chantel Cuddemi <jawsgirl87 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Welcome to the list!
>>
>> I am working my first dog from Pilot Dogs, a standard poodle named
>> Motley!
>>
>> We've been a team for a year and eight months.
>>
>> Good luck with what school you choose!
>>
>> Chantel and Motley.
>>
>> On 10/31/13, Hannah Chadwick <sparklylicious at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hey,
>> Welcome to the list. I'm working my second guide, Spritz. She is from
>> Guide Dogs for the Blind. She is a black lab; I got her over the
>> summer.
>> Since I'm a college student and having had a previous dog that was very
>> high-maintenance, I knew I would need financial assistance and after
>> support. Those were two of the major things I looked for when I applied
>> to
>> schools. The training methods (positive vs negative) used in schools
>> also
>> mattered to me. Of course which may vary on an individual and team
>> basis,
>> but I've come to realize that food rewards go a long way. My first dog
>> was
>> from Pilot because I wanted a poodle, but she retired after almost a
>> year.
>> My training experience at Pilot was good, but I wasn't as experienced so
>> I
>> didn't have the necessary tools to manage such a high-strung dog.
>> Please
>> email me off-list if you have further questions.
>> Good luck with the application process and all that.
>> Best, Hannah and Spritz
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Shickeytha Chandler <shickeytha at gmail.com
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org Date sent: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 14:08:20 -0400
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Schools
>>
>> No problem. I understand that different people have different
>> experiences
>> and perspectives, and I think it is important to consider both positive
>> and negative. Thanks.
>>
>> On 10/31/13, Mike <blinkin4342 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> As a Fidelco client I completely disagree with the statement that
>> Fidelco
>> has contract issues. The issues are definitely personal and not
>> Fidelco's
>> fault.
>> I have had nothing but good experiences with Fidelco over the last
>> three
>> years and I know a lot of people who feel the same way. There are a
>> certain
>> handful of folks on this list who have personal issues with Fidelco and
>> tend
>> to be much louder than the people who have good experiences.
>> You should definitely read the contract to make sure you are aware of
>> the
>> rules. That is the case with any guy dog school. Just keep an open
>> mind.
>> Every school has good and bad things. Every school has someone who
>> loves
>> them and hates them. I'd recommend that you decide what breed you
>> want,
>> see
>> what school meets your needs the best, and go forward from there.
>>
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> On Oct 31, 2013, at 12:18 PM, "Larry D. Keeler"
>> <lkeeler at comcast.net
>> wrote:
>>
>> First, watch out for Fidelco! They have contract issues.
>> Before
>> you
>> decide, make sure you read and understand the contract. The other
>> thing,
>> schools when possible do give you a choice. Now always can they
>> accomidate
>> but usually they can. I went to Pilot because I wanted a poodle. They
>> breed them down there. However, I ended up qith a labradoodle wich is
>> almost as good! As for training at school or at home, I think it would
>> be
>> more useful to train at hom. But, if you know your neighborhood, it
>> doesn't matter as much.
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shickeytha Chandler"
>> <shickeytha at gmail.com
>> To: <nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 11:44 AM
>> Subject: [nagdu] Guide Dog Schools
>>
>>
>> Hello all,
>>
>> I am new to the list. I currently travel with a cane, but am very
>> seriously considering getting a guide dog in the near future.
>> I
>> am
>> doing research on guide dog schools to see which might be best for me.
>> I am considering Fidelco, Guiding Eyes and the Seeing Eye.
>> Does
>> anyone
>> on this list have either particularly positive or especially negative
>> experiences with any of these schools? If so, I would be interested to
>> hear your feedback. Also, I noticed that Fidelco does training at your
>> residence, whereas the other schools bring you to their campuses for
>> training. I would like to hear perspectives about the disadvantages
>> and advantages of each of these methods of training.
>>
>> Finally, I know that various types of dogs are trained as guides,
>> ranging from labs to German Shepherds. I would like to know if schools
>> give you a choice as to what type of dog you are paired with.
>> Also, I
>> would be interested to hear from anyone who has worked with dogs of
>> various kinds; I'd like to know your thoughts as to whether there are
>> distinct qualities that one breed possesses that another breed does
>> not generally possess. Of course, I am sure all dogs are unique, even
>> within a breed type.
>>
>> I know that is a lot of questions for one email. Thanks in advance for
>> any insight that you can provide.
>>
>> Shickeytha
>>
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>> --
>> "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty
>> recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was
>> vanity:
>> but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their
>> dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E.
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>> --
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>>
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