[nagdu] Blindfolds During Training for Those Who Have Some Vision
Jenine Stanley
jeninems at wowway.com
Fri Nov 8 15:55:20 UTC 2013
Anne,
good point about the sound shadow effect. That was in part what was
happening. As I thought back on the incident and then went to look at some
notes I'd made back then, it turns out that John asked me to snap my fingers
as we walked sighted guide to hear the echoes from the very active
soundscape to my right. This did help initially pinpoint things. Granted, it
must have looked interesting, me holding his arm with one hand, leash draped
over other hand with fingers snapping, dog at a nice jaunty heel. :)
Yes, in part the sensation when moving closer to things is about the changes
in air currents and such. I think though that it's a mix of different
sensations from those acting upon the skin and bone structure to those being
perceived through nerves, hearing, residual vision, etc.
I have a dead spot just above and to the right of my right eye where I don't
seem to feel these sensations. I'm forever knocking that right eye area into
things, corners of doors, chair backs when kneeling down, and worst of all,
a doorknob when bending too close to it. If I put on glasses or a hat, this
gets noticeably worse.
I too wonder about harness noise, even that small clink of handle against
rings being used at all for echo location.
When I use a cane, I use the constant contact technique rather than tapping
the cane and lifting it through the arc. That sound does indeed give good
echo location when I need it.
I'm beginning to wonder if I just have a hollow head because tongue clicks
have never worked for me in echo location. It has to be a finger snap or
other sound outside of my head. Otherwise, all I hear is the click and no
echo. :)
Yes, this is indeed a fascinating discussion.
Jenine Stanley
jeninems at wowway.com
http://www.twitter.com/jeninems
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ann Edie
Sent: Friday, November 08, 2013 10:37 AM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Blindfolds During Training for Those Who Have Some
Vision
Hi, Jenine, Marion, and All,
Jenine, from your description of what you were doing as you walked along
that sidewalk in Florida, it sounds as if you were not actually using echo
location, but rather using the "sound shadow" effect. At least it is my
understanding that echo location is when the person sends out a signal, like
a clicking or whistling sound, which bounces off objects in the environment
and then bounces back to the person in different amounts and "shapes" to
give the person a sound picture of those objects. It sounds as if you were,
on the other hand, using the fairly constant sound of traffic on the busy
road and listening for when the poles came between you and the road and you
were in the sound shadow of the poles. I believe that using sound shadows
is an equally useful mobility tool, and one which also makes use of the
sense of hearing, but is probably a bit more familiar to blind travelers
than is the active form of echo location. The sighted analogy for this
distinction would be that the sound shadow effect is like seeing the
silouettes of objects against a lighted background versus shining a
flashlight onto objects to see them in the dark.
This is not to say that hearing is the only sense involved in the use of the
"sound shadow" effect. While we may predominantly hear the change in the
sound coming from the busy road, if the sun is also coming from the
direction of the pole, we may feel the change in temperature which results
from the sun shadow of the pole falling across our face and body. If we
pass closer to the poles, we might perceive changes in the air current, or
we may feel heat reflected off the pole toward us if the sun is shining on
the near side of the pole.
The last research I heard about on the subject of echolocation, which was
admittedly a couple of years ago, seemed to confirm that hearing was the
sense being relied upon. But this doesn't mean that in the real world we
are not using more than one tool at the same time or using several senses in
combination. For example, in your example of being able to perceive a hand
being waved close to one's face or upper body even when the ears are
plugged, I believe one would be perceiving the movement of the air currents
as the hand was moved in proximity to the skin, or perhaps one would also be
able to feel the heat of the other person's body and hand. Is this what you
are referring to when you say that it is through the proprioceptive system
that we are perceiving these sensations? And perhaps it is these
perceptions which would be interfered with by the use of sleepshades, a
different pair of glasses, or a hat, etc., because these things would change
the way air currents and changes in temperature interact with the skin.
On the subject of echo location, I know that some cane users (if not all)
use the tap of the cane as a sound source for echo location, whether
consciously or not. I have wondered whether the reason some guide dog users
like to have their dogs wear bells or jingling tags is that these sounds can
also be used as the beacons for echo location. What do you think?
Very interesting discussion. Thanks to all involved.
Best,
Ann
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jenine Stanley
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2013 5:14 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Blindfolds During Training for Those Who Have Some
Vision
Marion,
There's some great info out there about echo location and how it works from
Dan Kish and his group.
I never thought I could use it before until a guide dog instructor showed me
how. This person, John Biegel, for those who knew him at GDF, did not have
any official blindness education, not even a college degree I think. What
John had thought was the ability to learn from his students.
He was working with me during a combo training in Florida. We were working
on finding the right driveway along a 1 mile strip of sidewalk. On the left
were a series of driveways with shrubbery running along the edge of the
sidewalk. Behind this shrubbery were parking lots, buildings, strip malls,
etc. Some of the driveways could be felt as you crossed them but most
couldn't.
On the right side of the sidewalk was Route 436, a very busy 6 to 8 lane
road. Between me and this road though was the typical Florida foliage, palm
trees, large leaf ferns and who knows what else. Visually John described it
as looking like brocade. Audit orally, it was like listening through a fence
with lots of little slats. As you walked the sound changed.
Along the route there were also light poles. John asked me if I could hear
the light poles as we passed them. I must have had a really stupefied look
because he then explained what some of his students had shown him over the
years about echo location.
He had me walk along sighted guide with him on my left, the dog at heel on
my right and listen, with him calling out when we were passing a pole. Then
he did it again without calling that out. Soon I could pick out the pole as
I passed it with him then with the dog. It really opened up things for me
and I used those light poles to keep track of where I was along that route
to direct the dog into various businesses.
Jenine Stanley
jeninems at wowway.com
http://www.twitter.com/jeninems
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of National
Association of Guide Dog Users
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2013 6:30 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Blindfolds During Training for Those Who Have Some
Vision
Jenine,
Thank you very much for this explanation. I think I need to do a
little more research on this topic! As a student of psychology, the field of
perception is very interesting to me!
Fraternally yours,
Marion Gwizdala
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jenine Stanley
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2013 10:32 AM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Blindfolds During Training for Those Who Have Some
Vision
Marion,
Just a note about "facial vision" or echo location.
This skill does indeed utilize the entire head and sometimes shoulders in
processing information. The proprioceptive system is what does the
processing. The bones of one's face, as well as the sound coming in through
the ears, help localize echoes.
I have very little light perception in my left eye now and no vision in the
right eye. I rely on echo location a good bit and have to be very selective
about what glasses I choose if wearing them. Anything close to my face, even
the brim of a hat, can radically change the echo location.
You can test this yourself by placing something in your ears to muffle
sound. Then have someone walk up beside you and wave a hand close to your
upper body and head. Chances are good that if you use this skill often, even
in background processing, you will feel a change as the hand comes close to
your body, something beyond normal hearing.
Yes, people can adjust to wearing sleep shades but often this change can
bring on headaches, neck pain, etc. as the proprioceptive system adjusts.
That said, I'm not saying the use of sleep shades is a bad idea. I think
practicing and regularly using non-visual skills is especially important for
someone with some degree of usable vision. I applaud the person who uses
echo location with her usable vision if that's the case, as not many people
do. I know I didn't realize how much I used it until I would put on sun
glasses and such.
As for GDF's policy on using sleep shades, we will suggest it and even force
the issue if we see that someone is using residual vision too much and it is
seriously compromising the work with the dog. It is not mandatory though.
Jenine Stanley
jeninems at wowway.com
http://www.twitter.com/jeninems
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of National
Association of Guide Dog Users
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2013 9:40 AM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Blindfolds During Training for Those Who Have Some
Vision
Chantel,
I applaude Pilot for doing this; my opinion is that this is a very
progressive policy! I am a strong advocate for using sleep shades during
blindness skills training, especially when it involves Orientation &
Mobility training. When I sat on Southeastern Guide Dogs Graduate Advisory
Council, I pressed for mandatory sleep shade work for those who had residual
eyesight because I believe this helps strengthen the skill by not using
residual eyesight during the training process. I had one Council member
object to my proposal, asserting that the sleep shade interfered with her
"facial vision". I told her she should not wear the sleep shades over her
ears! So call "facial vision" is accurately called echolocation and is a
function of the ears, not the face!
Fraternally yours,
Marion Gwizdala
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chantel Cuddemi
Sent: Monday, November 04, 2013 12:59 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Blindfolds During Training for Those Who Have Some
Vision
Nicole,
I don't have any vision, but when I went to train with Motley at Pilot,
everyone in my class was required to wear a blindfold during one of our
walks.
Chantel and Motley.
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nicole Torcolini
Sent: Monday, November 04, 2013 12:20 AM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: [nagdu] Blindfolds During Training for Those Who Have Some Vision
I know that this may not be as important to some people as others, but
another interesting and potentially sensitive bit of information that would
be nice to have about the different schools is which ones have the trainees
who have some sight wear blindfolds during training and if it is optional.
_______________________________________________
nagdu mailing list
nagdu at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/jawsgirl87%40gmail.com
_______________________________________________
nagdu mailing list
nagdu at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/blind411%40verizon.net
_______________________________________________
nagdu mailing list
nagdu at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/jeninems%40wowway.com
_______________________________________________
nagdu mailing list
nagdu at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/blind411%40verizon.net
_______________________________________________
nagdu mailing list
nagdu at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/jeninems%40wowway.com
_______________________________________________
nagdu mailing list
nagdu at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/annedie%40nycap.rr.com
_______________________________________________
nagdu mailing list
nagdu at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/jeninems%40wowway.com
More information about the NAGDU
mailing list