[nagdu] Blindfolds During Training for Those Who Have Some Vision

Tami Jarvis tami at poodlemutt.com
Fri Nov 8 16:04:20 UTC 2013


Ann,

Love the additional information!

I definitely use the sound of the bells in echolocation, especially when 
it comes to stair cases. I also pick up a lot of information about where 
walls are and have a much better sense of what obstacles are at leg 
level. When Mitzi manages to lose her bells or when a bell stops 
working, then I'm kinda lost and fearful about what's under my feet 
until I figure out what is going on there. I imagine there is a huge 
stairwell just waiting to swallow me up at every step. Once I realize 
the bells aren't up to snuff, I can talk myself out of that and deal. 
/smile/

Mitzi is interesting. She has figured out how to use the bells in 
various ways when she is not working in harness, so that can be very 
useful. Also, the bells help her not be tripped over all the time. /lol/

You've reminded me I need to get some new bells!

Tami

On 11/08/2013 07:36 AM, Ann Edie wrote:
> Hi, Jenine, Marion, and All,
>
> Jenine, from your description of what you were doing as you walked along
> that sidewalk in Florida, it sounds as if you were not actually using echo
> location, but rather using the "sound shadow" effect.  At least it is my
> understanding that echo location is when the person sends out a signal, like
> a clicking or whistling sound, which bounces off objects in the environment
> and then bounces back to the person in different amounts and "shapes" to
> give the person a sound picture of those objects.  It sounds as if you were,
> on the other hand, using the fairly constant sound of traffic on the busy
> road and listening for when the poles came between you and the road and you
> were in the sound shadow of the poles.  I believe that using sound shadows
> is an equally useful mobility tool, and one which also makes use of the
> sense of hearing, but is probably a bit more familiar to blind travelers
> than is the active form of echo location.  The sighted analogy for this
> distinction would be that the sound shadow effect is like seeing the
> silouettes of objects against a lighted background versus shining a
> flashlight onto objects to see them in the dark.
>
> This is not to say that hearing is the only sense involved in the use of the
> "sound shadow" effect.  While we may predominantly hear the change in the
> sound coming from the busy road, if the sun is also coming from the
> direction of the pole, we may feel the change in temperature which results
> from the sun shadow of the pole falling across our face and body.  If we
> pass closer to the poles, we might perceive changes in the air current, or
> we may feel heat reflected off the pole toward us if the sun is shining on
> the near side of the pole.
>
> The last research I heard about on the subject of echolocation, which was
> admittedly a couple of years ago, seemed to confirm that hearing was the
> sense being relied upon.  But this doesn't mean that in the real world we
> are not using more than one tool at the same time or using several senses in
> combination.  For example, in your example of being able to perceive a hand
> being waved close to one's face or upper body even when the ears are
> plugged, I believe one would be perceiving the movement of the air currents
> as the hand was moved in proximity to the skin, or perhaps one would also be
> able to feel the heat of the other person's body and hand.  Is this what you
> are referring to when you say that it is through the proprioceptive system
> that we are perceiving these sensations?  And perhaps it is these
> perceptions which would be interfered with by the use of sleepshades, a
> different pair of glasses, or a hat, etc., because these things would change
> the way air currents and changes in temperature interact with the skin.
>
> On the subject of echo location, I know that some cane users (if not all)
> use the tap of the cane as a sound source for echo location, whether
> consciously or not.  I have wondered whether the reason some guide dog users
> like to have their dogs wear bells or jingling tags is that these sounds can
> also be used as the beacons for echo location.  What do you think?
>
> Very interesting discussion.  Thanks to all involved.
>
> Best,
> Ann
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jenine Stanley
> Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2013 5:14 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Blindfolds During Training for Those Who Have Some
> Vision
>
> Marion,
>
> There's some great info out there about echo location and how it works from
> Dan Kish and his group.
>
> I never thought I could use it before until a guide dog instructor showed me
> how. This person, John Biegel, for those who knew him at GDF, did not have
> any official blindness education, not even a college degree I think. What
> John had thought was the ability to learn from his students.
>
> He was working with me during a combo training in Florida. We were working
> on finding the right driveway along a 1 mile strip of sidewalk. On the left
> were a series of driveways with shrubbery running along the edge of the
> sidewalk. Behind this shrubbery were parking lots, buildings, strip malls,
> etc. Some of the driveways could be felt as you crossed them but most
> couldn't.
>
> On the right side of the sidewalk was Route 436, a very busy 6 to 8 lane
> road. Between me and this road though was the typical Florida foliage, palm
> trees, large leaf ferns and who knows what else. Visually John described it
> as looking like brocade. Audit orally, it was like listening through a fence
> with lots of little slats. As you walked the sound changed.
>
> Along the route there were also light poles. John asked me if I could hear
> the light poles as we passed them. I must have had a really stupefied look
> because he then explained what some of his students had shown him over the
> years about echo location.
>
> He had me walk along sighted guide with him on my left, the dog at heel on
> my right and listen, with him calling out when we were passing a pole. Then
> he did it again without calling that out. Soon I could pick out the pole as
> I passed it with him then with the dog. It really opened up things for me
> and I used those light poles to keep track of where I was along that route
> to direct the dog into various businesses.
>
> Jenine Stanley
> jeninems at wowway.com
> http://www.twitter.com/jeninems
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of National
> Association of Guide Dog Users
> Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2013 6:30 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Blindfolds During Training for Those Who Have Some
> Vision
>
> Jenine,
> 	Thank you very much for this explanation. I think I need to do a
> little more research on this topic! As a student of psychology, the field of
> perception is very interesting to me!
>
> Fraternally yours,
> Marion Gwizdala
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jenine Stanley
> Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2013 10:32 AM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Blindfolds During Training for Those Who Have Some
> Vision
>
> Marion,
>
> Just a note about "facial vision" or echo location.
>
> This skill does indeed utilize the entire head and sometimes shoulders in
> processing information. The proprioceptive system is what does the
> processing. The bones of one's face, as well as the sound coming in through
> the ears, help localize echoes.
>
> I have very little light perception in my left eye now and no vision in the
> right eye. I rely on echo location a good bit and have to be very selective
> about what glasses I choose if wearing them. Anything close to my face, even
> the brim of a hat, can radically change the echo location.
>
> You can test this yourself by placing something in your ears to muffle
> sound. Then have someone walk up beside you and wave a hand close to your
> upper body and head. Chances are good that if you use this skill often, even
> in background processing, you will feel a change as the hand comes close to
> your body, something beyond normal hearing.
>
> Yes, people can adjust to wearing sleep shades but often this change can
> bring on headaches, neck pain, etc. as the proprioceptive system adjusts.
>
> That said, I'm not saying the use of sleep shades is a bad idea. I think
> practicing and regularly using non-visual skills is especially important for
> someone with some degree of usable vision. I applaud the person who uses
> echo location with her usable vision if that's the case, as not many people
> do. I know I didn't realize how much I used it until I would put on sun
> glasses and such.
>
> As for GDF's policy on using sleep shades, we will suggest it and even force
> the issue if we see that someone is using residual vision too much and it is
> seriously compromising the work with the dog. It is not mandatory though.
>
> Jenine Stanley
> jeninems at wowway.com
> http://www.twitter.com/jeninems
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of National
> Association of Guide Dog Users
> Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2013 9:40 AM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Blindfolds During Training for Those Who Have Some
> Vision
>
> Chantel,
> 	I applaude Pilot for doing this; my opinion is that this is a very
> progressive policy! I am a strong advocate for using sleep shades during
> blindness skills training, especially when it involves Orientation &
> Mobility training. When I sat on Southeastern Guide Dogs Graduate Advisory
> Council, I pressed for mandatory sleep shade work for those who had residual
> eyesight because  I believe this helps strengthen the skill by not using
> residual eyesight during the training process. I had one Council member
> object to my proposal, asserting that the sleep shade interfered with her
> "facial vision". I told her she should not wear the sleep shades over her
> ears! So call "facial vision" is accurately called echolocation and is a
> function of the ears, not the face!
>
> Fraternally yours,
> Marion Gwizdala
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chantel Cuddemi
> Sent: Monday, November 04, 2013 12:59 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Blindfolds During Training for Those Who Have Some
> Vision
>
> Nicole,
>
> I don't have any vision, but when I went to train with Motley at Pilot,
> everyone in my class  was required to wear a blindfold during one of our
> walks.
>
> Chantel and Motley.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nicole Torcolini
> Sent: Monday, November 04, 2013 12:20 AM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: [nagdu] Blindfolds During Training for Those Who Have Some Vision
>
> I know that this may not be as important to some people as others, but
> another interesting and potentially sensitive bit of information that would
> be nice to have about the different schools is which ones have the trainees
> who have some sight wear blindfolds during training and if it is optional.
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