[nagdu] re ownership

Thu Nov 14 19:46:11 UTC 2013

Doug,
	I believe we need to start shifting the paradigm linking the price
we pay to the permission we give training program's to interfere in our
lives. I am of the opinion those training programs that remind us that they
have given us the dog at no cost are simply leaving the door open to impose
their paternalistic attitudes and behaviors. They would do well to remember
that we are consumers of their product, not their beneficiaries; rather,
they are really the beneficiaries of donors, many of whom are their blind
consumers. Training programs are merely the channels through which donors
support the cause of enhanced mobility and greater participation in society.
The price of training a guide dog is not borne by the training program but
by the donors from whom the CEOs earn their 6-figure salaries! The price
that is paid is only one form of consideration for ownership. In fact,
ownership does not require financial consideration. If someone gives you a
gift, the giving of the gift without financial consideration transfers
ownership of the gift. If someone gives you a car, they no longer have the
right to it or its benefits. They cannot, for instance, rescind your
ownership of the vehicle because you drive too fast, let someone else use
it, or don't wash it enough. The only exception to this is property that is
given as a condition of fulfilling a future contract, such as an engagement
ring for the future contract of wedding or a signing bonus for future
employment. If the future contract is not fulfilled, the ownership of the
previous property is rescinded.

	Some may say ownership is not a deal breaker; however, when the
nonexistence of ownership rights becomes an issue, many change their minds.
I have been contacted by those who felt that ownership was unnecessary until
the training program threatened to remove their dog without cause and
without objective evidence that removal was necessary. In fact, I have had
two people tell me the training program told them their dog was overweight
while the veterinarian asserted the dog was at an ideal weight. 

	I have heard many arguments about why it is better for training
programs to retain ownership and have not heard one that is valid. For
instance, training programs can provide financial assistance to consumers
who own their dogs. GDB does so even after ownership is transferred.
Programs can offer assistance for preventive care. GDF sends its consumers
flea control and heartworm preventative. Programs can provide follow-up
services after ownership and all programs that transfer ownership have just
as effective follow-up as those who do not. In fact, I think more consumers
are likely to request follow-up assistance if they own their dog than if
they do not, as they have no fear the program will deem them to be unfit
handlers because of such issues that require follow-up than with those who
feel the training program might take their dog away if they request
follow-up. JMHO!

Fraternally yours,
Marion Gwizdala 

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Doug Parisian
Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 1:36 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] re ownership

I also don't care much about whether or not I actually "own" any of my dogs,
but rather the ethics of the school which supplies my most awesome freedom. 
As it happens, I've gotten my five dogs (at different times, smirk) from The
Seeing Eye where we of course "own" our dogs outright.  Hey, I live in an
apartment and pay rent so I obviously don't own it and, if I break the rules
of the landlord, I'm out the door.  Wonder how many folks would be so strong
on ownership were they obliged to actually purchase to own, about the price
sighted folks might pay for a quality car, give or take a few thousand.

Doug: where's the nearest barking lot?

----- Original Message -----
From: <craig.heaps at comcast.net>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 12:24 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] re ownership

:I am one of those who really doesn't care. My guide, Chase, is great and we

have a wonderful bond. But that's not changed by who owns him. At Guide Dogs

for the Blind, I can apply for ownership after a year. I've had Chase four 
months now, and I'm not sure I'll apply in eight months from now. I'm really

not concerned they are going to take Chase away from me. That is not to say 
I don't understand and respect the opinions of those who want ownership of 
their guides.
:
: ----- Original Message -----
:
: From: "Larry D. Keeler" <lkeeler at comcast.net>
: To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
: Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 10:05:28 AM
: Subject: Re: [nagdu] re ownership
:
: Aggreed! Although I'm in favor of ownership, I know some who just don't
: care! I do strongly recomend that folks should look at the school 
contracts
: before they sign so as to know as much as possible and avoid unpleasant
: surprises! The contracts should be lookede at and us as consumers should
: decide based on what we like or don't.
: ----- Original Message ----- 
: From: "GARY STEEVES" <rainshadowmusic at shaw.ca>
: To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
: <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
: Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 12:40 PM
: Subject: [nagdu] re ownership
:
:
: > Hi All:
: >
: > I have to weigh in on this conversation with a potential guide dog user.

I
: > am in total agreement that ownership is one of the issues I recommend
: > people look at when picking a school but I think we should keep away 
from
: > blanket statements about what is good or bad. It is up to the individual
: > to assess how they feel about the owner rules. I think it is important 
to
: > talk to a school about why they have such a policy and when do they
: > enforce it. I wasn't happy that the school I went to had a policy where
: > they have ownership until retirement but I decided to go there anyways.
: > Once I got there and talked with the trainers and head of their program 
I
: > learned that they have very rarely taken a dog back and it is 99% 
because
: > a person has let their dog get extremely over weight. Even then, they 
take
: > the dog for three months to get it's weight down and work with the 
client
: > to further educate them on looking after their dog. After the 3 months
: > they return the dog and monitor the situation closely. They will take 
the
: > dog away if it is allowed to get over weight again. So, yes I would 
prefer
: > ownership but am able to live with this policy at this time. However, it
: > is not as simple as saying I lent you a book and I can just take it back
: > at any time, or at least all situations wouldn't be that cut and dry.
: >
: > Gary
: >
: > PS: I'm celebrating that I got very behind on the list last year. My
: > webmail doesn't allow bulk deletes so I actually went through over 4000
: > emails in the past six months and am now finally up to date! Silly but
: > made me feel good to delete the last old message from September 2012. :)
: >
: >
: > ----- Original Message ----- 
: > From: barbandzoe at comcast.net
: > To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
: > <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
: > Sent: Thu, 14 Nov 2013 09:51:57 -0700 (MST)
: > Subject: Re: [nagdu] Hi
: >
: >
: >
: > I work at a fitness club, I do laundry and locker room attendant I am 
part
: > time right now and have no vacation and sick pay.
: >
: > I had always though that guide dogs were only for people with no sight,
: > and now I find that people who are legally blind can use a guide dog. I
: > don't like using a cane I feel funny. Plus I have had abit of trouble 
with
: > night and bright day vision since I get glaucoma. Plus I am in my 
fifties
: > and go home at night and I end up in the best part of town. I have not 
had
: > trouble yet, but all the people going to the bar and the guys out pan
: > handling, well it would be nice to have a friend with me. plus sometimes
: > when I cross so of the busier streets, it is a bit of a guessing game.
: > Plus I would have had a dog and time ago if I would have known this.
: >
: > If it is a cane or dog, I will take the dog anyday.
: >
: > Barb
: >
: >
: >
: > ----- Original Message ----- 
: >
: > From: "Star Gazer" <pickrellrebecca at gmail.com>
: > To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
: > <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
: > Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 10:28:17 AM
: > Subject: Re: [nagdu] Hi
: >
: > Not necessarily.
: > Talk to other schools, GDF, Guiding Eyes, Leader, you've got nothing to
: > loose.
: > Leader Dogs also doesn't grant ownership.
: > I'm not sure about Guiding Eyes. GDF does. Any school that doesn't grant
: > ownership can take your dog back. Think of it like renting. If that 
gives
: > you the willies, then you do need a school that grants ownership.
: > Could you take medical leave or vacation time? Would you want to do 
this?
: > I'm curious, what do you do? And, why do you want a dog now? Maybe if 
you
: > can explain that to your employer, you'll have better luck?
: > I had two dogs, and now use a cane. If you like, email me off-list.
: >
: >
: > -----Original Message----- 
: > From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
: > barbandzoe at comcast.net
: > Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 10:22 AM
: > To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
: > Subject: Re: [nagdu] Hi
: >
: >
: >
: > Hi,
: >
: > Thanks for that. I don't have the option to say it's like taking 
classes,
: > cause we have no classes to take that would help me in my job. I am a 
low
: > level employee and they can find some one w=else to do my job.
: >
: > I have herd that about fidelco the taking of the dog. That does bother 
me.
: > But if I want a dog I would have to go through them because I can't get
: > that kind of time off.
: >
: >
: > Barb
: >
: > ----- Original Message ----- 
: >
: > From: "Star Gazer" <pickrellrebecca at gmail.com>
: > To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
: > <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
: > Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 8:03:14 AM
: > Subject: Re: [nagdu] Hi
: >
: > Barb,
: > Talk to your boss and present it as training like computer or other
: > training, training that you will use to help make you a better employee.
: > Look at your com Pany and see what types of courses they offer, many do
: > offer multiweek courses of all kinds.
: > I'd approach from that angle.
: > As for Fildelco, you have to understand that they don't grant ownership,
: > which means they can take your dog at any time for any reason. It's be
: > like if I lent you my Ipod, I could come and get it whenever I liked. 
The
: > school may never do this to you, but they do have that option.
: >
: >
: > -----Original Message----- 
: > From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
: > barbandzoe at comcast.net
: > Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 10:33 PM
: > To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
: > Subject: Re: [nagdu] Hi
: >
: > Yes, I have herd about things with fidelco, but I don't know what the
: > issues are. I don't want trouble, and if I find they are to stricked in
: > some of their needs and conditions, I will look into another school. If
: > the people who have dogs from fidelco get this, could they tell me what 
I
: > may need to know. I know Seeing Eye has GSD's but they have a four week
: > program. How if I can get my boss to let me talk that time, I would go
: > there, or pilot dogs.
: >
: > Thanks
: > Barb
: >
: > ----- Original Message ----- 
: >
: > From: "Tai Blas" <taiablas at gmail.com>
: > To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
: > <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
: > Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 8:46:46 PM
: > Subject: Re: [nagdu] Hi
: >
: > Best of luck choosing a school. Whatever school you choose, be sure to
: > familiarize yourself with its contract. Some schools do not grant you 
full
: > ownership of your dog and requires certain conditions be met. There are
: > several people who got dogs from Fidelco on this list.
: >
: >
: > Tai
: >
: > Sent from my iPhone
: >
: >> On Nov 12, 2013, at 8:26 PM, barbandzoe at comcast.net wrote:
: >>
: >> II have been looking into Fidelco, mostly because they come to my house
: >> and train there for about three weeks, plus I really want a GSD. It is
: >> hard enough to get a couple of days off work two to four weeks would be
: >> hard. I know that I still have to take time off to train with Fidelco,
: >> but if I can't get a shift covered, maybe we could use that as a 
training
: >> session. Plus I have two dogs at home that are my roommates, and the
: >> trainer could maybe help with introducing them.
: >>
: >> Barb
: >>
: >> ----- Original Message ----- 
: >>
: >> From: "Tai Blas" <taiablas at gmail.com>
: >> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
: >> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
: >> Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 2:49:09 PM
: >> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Hi
: >>
: >> Welcome to the list. It is my understanding that Guide Dogs for the 
Blind
: >> has a two week training program. They have campuses in California and
: >> Oregon. Their website is www.guidedogs.com.
: >>
: >> Tai
: >>
: >>
: >>
: >> Sent from my iPhone
: >>
: >>> On Nov 12, 2013, at 2:34 PM, barbandzoe at comcast.net wrote:
: >>>
: >>> Hi am knew to the list, and my name is Barb
: >>>
: >>> I am looking into getting a guide dog, but haven't gotten any pepper
: >>> work yet. I am still looking at schools, but I am finding the 4 weeks
: >>> away from home and work a bit much to work around. I want a dog and 
hope
: >>> to get things started soon.
: >>>
: >>> Barb
: >>> _______________________________________________
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: >>
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: >>
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: >
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