[nagdu] self identification

Jenine Stanley jeninems at wowway.com
Sun Nov 24 02:00:47 UTC 2013


Shannon, 

I'm not Michael, and don't even play him on TV, but I can tell you from both
personal and professional experience that yes, larger dogs can fit under the
seats in front on most planes. There will be configurations where they will
not fit but generally, if the dog has no space or confinement issues, it
should be able to at least get most of its body under the seat in front of
you. 

That said, I've seen 85 pound Goldens curl up into tiny balls and fit
completely under seats while my Jerry Lee, a 20-inch tall, 45 pound Lab,
would expand to fit the space available so if put in bulkhead, would spread
out like dirty laundry. 

Molly, the Lab/Poodle cross, had confinement issues and would not go down
and under things after about the first year of traveling. Swap, who is about
26 inches tall and weighs around 70 pounds, loves down and under and if in
bulkhead, will try to get under the person's legs next to me. 

It really depends on the dog but I would give it a serious try because
Michael makes a very good point about turbulance and safety.

Jenine Stanley
jeninems at wowway.com
http://www.twitter.com/jeninems


-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Shannon Dyer
Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2013 8:30 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] self identification

Hi, Michael.

I've always had small dogs. My biggest was 21 inches tall, but I know of
dogs who are much larger. My partner, for example, has a lab who measures 26
inches, and is quite long. Do you know if large dogs can fit under the seat
in front? I can see smaller dogs doing it, but I'm not sure about larger
dogs.

Shannon and the Acelet
On Nov 23, 2013, at 5:22 PM, "Michael Hingson" <Mike at michaelhingson.com>
wrote:

> Mike,
> 
> Thanks for the email.  Good question.  What happens if you are caught 
> in severe turbulents?  This year alone I know of three flights where 
> passengers were injured due to turbulent conditions during the flights 
> including take-offs and landings.  Since dogs do not wear seatbelts 
> there is nothing to prevent a dog lying in a bulkhead row from 
> bouncing about in severe turbulents.  The airlines are all about 
> safety, so they say.  Well then let's talk safety for guide dogs.  
> There is nothing restraining a guide dog in a bulkhead row.  Also, the 
> dog may often lye across more than one seat's legroom.
> 
> In a non-bulkhead seat the dog can be positioned under the seat in 
> front with its head between its owner's feet.  In this position the 
> dog is comfortable, and it is secure and restrained in case of 
> emergencies.  By any standard the handler has much more control over 
> the dog in a non-bulkhead seat.  Even if there is an emergency and the 
> dog panics the handler has much more control when the dog is under a 
> seat than can be attained when the dog is in a bulkhead seat and thus can
help keep the dog calmer.
> 
> I hope this helps. 
> 
> 
> Best,
> 
> 
> Michael Hingson
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mike
> Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2013 02:10 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] self identification
> 
> Hey Michael,
> 
> I'm curious as to why you say the bulkhead seats are not safe. I 
> travel all the time and have been in just about every seat with my guy 
> dog but I've never had any issues so I'm curious about what you're basing
this off of.
> 
> Thanks and have a good day.
> 
> Mike Malarsie
> www.malarsie.com
> 
>> On Nov 23, 2013, at 3:25 PM, "Michael Hingson" 
>> <Mike at michaelhingson.com>
> wrote:
>> 
>> Fear not.  They will hear about this. 
>> 
>> 
>> Best,
>> 
>> 
>> Michael Hingson
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jenine 
>> Stanley
>> Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2013 12:22 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] self identification
>> 
>> And I'd hope, Michael, that if you don't file a complaint under the 
>> ACAA against US Air for what they stated to you about their policy, 
>> which is illegal under said ACAA, then they'll just keep doing it, 
>> whether you self identify at the ticket ordering stage or at the airport.
>> 
>> Jenine Stanley
>> jeninems at wowway.com
>> http://www.twitter.com/jeninems
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Michael 
>> Hingson
>> Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2013 2:27 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] self identification
>> 
>> Genine,
>> 
>> While I understand your reasoning for self identification, the fact 
>> is that the airlines make up the rules as they go, and they are good 
>> at intimidating people who may not be strong enough to resist their 
>> extreme lack of sensitivity, knowledge of the law, and common sense.
>> For these reasons I usually do not identify in advance.  Here is a 
>> case in
> point.
>> 
>> Last Saturday I made a reservation on US Air.  (I usually use 
>> American as I am executive Platinum on AA and can get most places 
>> with them.) However, because AA didn't fly where I needed to go I 
>> chose to fly US Air as it was the best choice for my needs for a
particular flight.
>> Given the experience Al Rizzi had and because I wanted to get the 
>> full experience of how US Air would treat me I decided to try an 
>> experiment and identify that I was traveling with a guide dog.  
>> Usually I do not so identify as I can simply request in advance the 
>> seat I want and get it.  (I refuse to fly in the bulkhead as it is 
>> unsafe and so that is not
> an issue.).
>> 
>> Anyway, immediately upon identifying the existence of my guide dog I 
>> was told that US Air's policy was that I would be required to sit in 
>> the bulkhead row.  I simply flat out said "no" and that I would be 
>> sitting elsewhere.
>> 
>> After being put on hold for five minutes the agent came back to 
>> inform me that she, with her supervisor's permission, put me in a 
>> non-bulkhead seat, but that I might be changed back to the bulkhead 
>> at the airport.  The agent switched my seat even though she had said 
>> that US Air's policy was that I had to sit in the bulkhead row?  
>> Really?  So
> much for a "policy".
>> 
>> I have no specific knowledge of the US Air policy, but I will learn it.
>> However, it doesn't matter.  The ACAA does not require me to sit in 
>> the bulkhead nor even by a window.  Many blind passengers do not have 
>> my level of experience and may not fight as hard.
>> 
>> I realize that at the airport people may also have the same fight to
> fight.
>> Even so, the fight is less likely if the airline has less time to 
>> make up rules or become entrenched in a position.  If you think it is 
>> bad for blind people with guide dogs I submit that people in 
>> wheelchairs often have even more difficult times.  I have seen this 
>> happen with my wife, Karen, almost every time we fly.
>> 
>> Finally, self identification should not be necessary as we should not 
>> have to be singled out as a class.  If you really can make a case for 
>> needing to identify yourself and your guide in advance to get a 
>> specific seat, and if that works for you, then so be it.  If, for 
>> example, you feel that you need the bulkhead then I can understand 
>> advance notice being given to the airlines as that will be the only 
>> way you get that seat.  I would say again, however, that bulkhead 
>> seats are arguably unsafe for guide dogs.  As a result, Since most 
>> guide dogs will fit under non-bulkhead seats advanced self 
>> identification is unnecessary and can only lead to more fights and
> difficulties just as with taxis.
>> 
>> 
>> Best,
>> 
>> 
>> Michael Hingson
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jenine 
>> Stanley
>> Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2013 07:46 AM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Subject: [nagdu] self identification
>> 
>> Marion,
>> 
>> I agree with you in most cases. Self identification just is not 
>> necessary as someone working with any type of assistance dog.
>> 
>> Air travel though is a bit different in a couple ways. I do self 
>> identify there because:
>> 
>> 1. It's a very restricted environment. It's not like another plane 
>> will just pull up to take you where you want to go.
>> 2. I want to pre-board for very specific reasons, to get the seat I 
>> want, which I'm pretty proactive about, and to get all dog-related 
>> issues settled ASAP so I can plug in and tune out. :) 3. But most 
>> importantly, under the Air Carrier Access Act, if I want a specific 
>> seat or type of seat as an accommodation for dog, I have to self 
>> identify, at least 48 hours before the flight.
>> 
>> So there ya go. 
>> 
>> Do I do this with taxi cabs, restaurants, stores, etc.? Absolutely not. 
>> 
>> Jenine Stanley
>> jeninems at wowway.com
>> http://www.twitter.com/jeninems
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
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