[nagdu] Identifying dogs reaching a common ground

Thu Sep 5 20:43:22 UTC 2013

As someone who is owner training, thanks for voicing your concerns. 

I have been a puppy raiser for years. I decided to train my own guide this winter
And it has gone great. I did not chose a puppy, but instead an older rescue
I knew  right out that there was a high chance of her failure and of course still is
She is taking well to training and we are very clear who she is affiliated with.
Despite her lack of school association, she is a successful and well behaved trainee. She shocks people regularly with her quiet and calm demeanor and exceptional skill. I did not randomly pick a dog.  I met several dogs, who were all very sweet... And she just fit the bill. She has every thing I wanted as far as temperament and intelligence. Is she perfect? No. But my roommates school trained dog is not either. She just called to say he ate her garbage bag...again... Lol. He makes mistakes inside the house and while working and so will Trinity. But they have to make the mark and they do.

So in sum, I specifically chose trinity and do not feel her skills are lesser or less credible then those of a school trained dog. There are tons of dog trainers for all sorts of things. And vision is not a requirment :). I'm proud of her and all she does. I can respect your uncertainly, but for as often as there are ineffective owner trainers, terr are ineffective school trained teams
Win some lose some, I suppose!

Danielle and Trinity
Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 5, 2013, at 4:24 PM, "Lora :)" <ichoosechrist2 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Bridget
> 
> I will have to agree that just because a dog comes from a school does
> not mean that the dog is well trained or should do service work. I
> personally have had two dogs that did not work out due to training
> from a school. Yes there are some people who slap on the label of
> service dog, but from what I have seen many owner trainers work very
> hard. Not everyone is meant to go to a program for training. Some
> people can't handle the atmosphere. I commend owner trainers. If I had
> the energy, funding and training I would train my own guide because I
> don't like correction based training which the schools use.
> 
> Lora
> 
> On 9/5/13, Tami Jarvis <tami at poodlemutt.com> wrote:
>> Bridget,
>> 
>> Are you asking who evaluates owner-trained dogs, or who evaluates
>> program-trained dogs? The answer is the same in both cases. The trainer.
>> There is no overall standard or oversight, in either case. A trainer
>> working for a program is an actual trainer who gets paid. An
>> owner-trainer is an actual trainer who is not paid. The professionals
>> who train for the programs do only a small part of the actual work to
>> finish off the task training. The owner-trainer also does the ground
>> work normally done by volunteer puppy raisers for the programs. The
>> owner-trainer does more actual training, in other words, than the
>> professional trainer.
>> 
>> Owner-trainers select their prospects much as the programs do. They do
>> the socializing and training much as the programs do. They do it at
>> their own time and expense. They spend the months and years to ensure
>> that the dog is trained for public access, and they do it on their own.
>> They are always aware that they may have to flush everything if their
>> prospect does not work out. They are aware from the get-go that while
>> the programs have entire litters to work from with a 50 percent success
>> rate at best, the OT will either succeed or lose everything. They are
>> aware that their dogs are not pets. Yes, a few folks do just do a
>> slap-on job of task-training their pets. The rest of us do a heck of a
>> lot of actual training. You can identify our dogs by observing them.
>> Their work and conduct speak for themselves.
>> 
>> I'm not sure I understand the conviction of so many -- and there seem to
>> be a growing number -- about the guarantee of behavior of service dogs
>> trained by professionals who work for fund-raising organizations. Some
>> of the concerns raised about a number of types of incidents at this
>> year's National Convention show that this is not the case. Of the 400
>> plus guide dogs there, does anyone know what percentage were
>> owner-trained? Of those teams involved in the incidents that were
>> discussed after Convention, does anyone know what percentage were
>> owner-trained and what percentage of handlers possessed IDs showing
>> their dogs were certified by programs with actual trainers?
>> 
>> I guess I'm puzzled by the assumption by so many that training given by
>> a fund-raising organization is a guarantee of any kind. The majority of
>> these programs have a reputation for high quality that speaks for
>> itself. If a trainer works for one of them, then you can certainly
>> assume that trainer is really dang good, among the best of the best. The
>> breeding stock of those with long-established lines also has a
>> well-deserved reputation for quality. That's because the dogs speak for
>> themselves. Most of them, anyway. One doesn't have to go around the
>> block very many times, though, to learn that none of it is a guarantee.
>> 
>> If we wish to outlaw owner-training based on the flaws or real bad
>> choices of a few, then what do we do with programs whose teams screw up?
>> Flush them, too?
>> 
>> One thing about presenting ID every time you go in a door: Many service
>> dog users have significant issues with the use of their hands. It might
>> not be inconvenient for you to pull out a card every few minutes. For
>> them, it would be literally impossible. For others, it might be possible
>> but would be excruciatingly painful.
>> 
>> There are philosophical concerns about requiring PWDs to show special ID
>> based on their choice of adaptive tools. But the practical concerns are
>> significant, as well, I think.
>> 
>> There is still the cost factor to consider, as well.
>> 
>> I understand people's frustrations, especially with all these emotional
>> and misleading articles popping up all over. Too many times, a program
>> rep is interviewed and takes the chance to spout off about how the dogs
>> trained by his/her program are guaranteed perfect and are certified!
>> They have hundreds of hours of training by experts! I've only read one
>> recently where the rep pointed out that their dogs have a thousand of
>> hours of public access training and that there is still no guarantee the
>> dogs will be perfect all the time. I about fainted. /smile/
>> 
>> Tami
>> 
>> On 09/04/2013 09:17 PM, Bridget Walker wrote:
>>> Hi All,
>>> 
>>> I have some thoughts after following the threads. in my opinion A service
>>> dog should be trained by an actual program. Yes that's right I said it.
>>> It's not the harness or the vest that makes the dog it is the training. I
>>> do not know how anyone can pick a random dog, train it on their own
>>> without being a trainer and call it a service animal. Until someone
>>> informs me of how a dog that is not trained by an actual trainer gets
>>> identified as a service dog I'm sorry I personally can find a reason why
>>> there can be conflicts.
>>> I fully believe the dogs the guide dog schools breed and train  are what
>>> make the dog. The early socialization and introductions the puppies get is
>>> crucial and it should all be done a specific way. With that I think this
>>> war over fake verses  legit service dogs is beating a dead horse.  I think
>>> there most definitely needs to be some kind of certification process for
>>> the dogs that are not trained from an actual program. If I could just
>>> train my pet as a guide dog is that really ok? I asked a while back who
>>> evaluates these dogs and I never got an answer. I don't think it can be
>>> just anyone who should make the call over what makes a good service dog
>>> that is what  a trainer. Training school is for.
>>> Ok a bit off topic there but really I think there is a reason we have
>>> training programs and ID cards. Do we need them by law? No, but maybe we
>>> just might at the rate everything is going.
>>> There are people that take for granted a lot of opportunities including
>>> this. I would still like to maintain the ability to travel   with a
>>> service dog as a right not a privilege.
>>> This is not designed. to say this goes to the fault of anyone specific
>>> because if we knew why there was such a conflict I am sure we would be
>>> acting on it.
>>> I leave it at that.
>>> 
>>> Bridget
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPad
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