[nagdu] Why Labradors?

Sherry Gomes sherriola at gmail.com
Tue Sep 17 15:23:29 UTC 2013 

Yeah, I've had black and yellow labs. I had a crazy black lab and a crazy
yellow lab, different issues. And Bianca and Olga are both black labs but
are as different in temperament as it is possible to be.



-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tracy Carcione
Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2013 9:15 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Why Labradors?

Hi Ian.
Blacks and yellows come from the same litter, so I'm not sure your theory 
holds water.  I've had both colors, and they seem pretty alike to me.  I've 
expressed a preference for black the last 3 times, just because I think 
people leave a dark dog alone more than a light one.
BTW, where did you apply, just out of curiosity?  GDB, for instance, seems 
to have a lot more yellows than other places do.
Tracy

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "I. C. Bray" <i.c.bray at win.net>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2013 6:30 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Why Labradors?


> To interject an opinion, I have met a number of Labs of late, and I tend 
> to
> find that Blacks are more puppyish and social.  I also find that Yellows 
> are
> more neurotic, but bond better to their handler.  If you want the best of
> both worlds, then a "Black & Tan" is the way to go.
>
> I personally want my upcoming furry, four footed eyes to be a yellow.
>
> Ian
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Raven Tolliver" <ravend729 at gmail.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2013 6:19 AM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Why Labradors?
>
>
> : Hi Minh,
> : I have met a number of labradors and a number of goldens. I make my
> : generalizations because of my experiences. Generally, adult goldens
> : are more laid-back than adult labradors in my experience. I understand
> : that there are laid-back labs. My dog's kennel mate was a very
> : laid-back black labrador. And I have assisted in the training of some
> : down-to-earth labradors. Too, I have seen energetic, spunky goldens,
> : but they were adolescent service dogs in training, or adult goldens
> : who were definitely not the service dog type.
> : I am not saying that labradors are bad guide dogs, but that they tend
> : to have qualities that I personally would not desire from a working
> : dog. Also, I was not generalizing goldens in my previous post. Rather,
> : I was specifying the type of golden that I would like to work with.
> : Nicole, the guide dog school I am referring to, Gallant Hearts Guide
> : Dog Center, trains German shepherds, dobermans, boxers, and golden
> : retrievers. This is a fairly young school with only a few graduates.
> : But there are many things I like about this program, and I hope that
> : it lasts just as long as the other schools out there.
> : Concerning house manners, I think sometimes, dogs' manners go downhill
> : because of the kennel environment. They stay in those kennels for at
> : least four months, so there is not much of an opportunity to maintain
> : house manners. Some dogs come out of the kennels scavenging, eating
> : their feces, frequently and inappropriately vocalizing, and the list
> : goes on. If it were possible for the dogs to remain in homes during
> : formal guide training, like the dogs over in Sweden, I truly believe
> : it would eliminate or lower the turn out of dogs with some common
> : behavior issues. Of course, the guide dog school of Sweden is very
> : small, so they can afford to have the guides in training live with the
> : different employees.
> :
> :
> :
> : On 9/17/13, minh ha <minh.ha927 at gmail.com> wrote:
> : > Raven,
> : >
> : > I think you're overgeneralizing all labs, and goldens for that matter.
> : > I've met insane labs and then I've met crazy goldens. Just because one
> : > is laidback and mature doesn't mean all of them are. I attribute
> : > negative behaviors more to the handlers than the dogs. Granted, there
> : > are dogs that are going to act out just because it's their
> : > personality, but it's the responsibility of the handlers to curb these
> : > behaviors as much as possible. I also think that with the school dogs,
> : > a lot of the house behaviors are taught by the puppy raisers and
> : > sometimes, these raisers don't instill the proper behaviors into the
> : > dogs at a young age.
> : >
> : > Minh
> : >
> : > On 9/16/13, Raven Tolliver <ravend729 at gmail.com> wrote:
> : >> Yeah, I think the puppy-like behavior is what bothers me. If I wanted
> : >> a puppy, I would get one. That insane behavior and getting into 
> things
> : >> is exactly what I'm referring to when I say they are high-strung,
> : >> goofy,and quirky. The running in circles, barking or growling--that's
> : >> a little nuts. Going after everything on the floor, or jumping up to
> : >> grab things that are on counters or high up--that's a nuisance.
> : >> I just don't think a labrador would ever be for me. I prefer a more
> : >> laid-back, mature, and well-mannered golden. I like a dog that's
> : >> perfectly fine with working all day from 9 to 9, but also okay with
> : >> sitting around the apartment all day with a couple play sessions
> : >> thrown in. I just don't need a dog with high energy requirements.
> : >> There's other reasons why I wouldn't get a lab, but the ones above 
> are
> : >> big contributing factors.
> : >>
> : >>
> : >> On 9/16/13, Darla Rogers <djrogers0628 at gmail.com> wrote:
> : >>> Hi Debbie,
> : >>> Leone sounds really cute, though I haven't always experienced, with
> : >>> my labs, the puppyish behavior until 5.  Huck still has some, but he
> : >>> never
> : >>> bothers anything in the house though he is much happier working and
> : >>> going
> : >>> places.
> : >>> The puppy part, if it isn't destructive, is one of the things I love
> : >>> about labs; they enjoy life!!!!  They usually enjoy their work, too,
> and
> : >>> they are seldom in a bad mood.
> : >>> Darla & HANDSOME Huck
> : >>>
> : >>>
> : >>> -----Original Message-----
> : >>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Debbie 
> Cole
> : >>> Sent: Monday, September 16, 2013 5:43 PM
> : >>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> : >>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Why Labradors?
> : >>>
> : >>> Labradores... they always have the minds and hearts of a puppy. 
> they
> : >>> just
> : >>> never seem to grow up.  We need to baby proof our house.  No socks 
> or
> : >>> objects left where she can get to them.  Coffee Tables must be
> cleaned.
> : >>> Remote controls up high.
> : >>>
> : >>> My Leone she gets this playful behavior mostly in the evenings after
> her
> : >>> 2nd
> : >>> to last walk.  (we're in an apartment with no yard) If i'm at the
> : >>> computer
> : >>> she will look at me from 5 feet away then start barking and running
> : >>> around
> : >>> the living room.  this means let's play.  she's 5.
> : >>> Still a puppy.  So I get her bone or a tug toy and i play tug with 
> her
> : >>> or
> : >>> throw her kongs.  Until she's tired.
> : >>>
> : >>> Once a Lab always a puppy.
> : >>>
> : >>> Debbie & Leone
> : >>>
> : >>> On 9/16/13, Sherry Gomes <sherriola at gmail.com> wrote:
> : >>>> My Bianca has had horrible house behavior, but I attribute that to
> her
> : >>>> intelligence. Her mind was always looking for something to do. I
> : >>>> learned dog proofing to a level I'd never needed before. Now she's
> : >>>> nearly thirteen, she can't physically get into the mischief she 
> used
> : >>>> to do. But since nobody, dog or human is perfect, I accept the
> : >>>> negative side of their personalities. On the other hand, Olga, my
> : >>>> current working dog, would no more get into trouble in the house 
> than
> : >>>> I would jump off a bridge! But though she's smart and a solid 
> steady
> : >>>> worker, she doesn't have that edge and absolute brilliance Bianca
> has.
> : >>>> But she is the dog I need for my life as it is now. I work from 
> home
> : >>>> now, and when Bianca was working, she'd have gone crazy with that
> kind
> : >>>> of schedule.
> : >>>>
> : >>>>
> : >>>>
> : >>>> -----Original Message-----
> : >>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Raven
> : >>>> Tolliver
> : >>>> Sent: Monday, September 16, 2013 11:58 AM
> : >>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> : >>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Why Labradors?
> : >>>>
> : >>>> I meant to put more of a focus on a lab's quirkiness than their
> : >>>> goofiness. I've definitely trained labradors that didn't goof off
> : >>>> during the session unless there was a toy involved, of course.
> : >>>> by work ethic, I guess I'm referring to the dog's concentration on
> and
> : >>>> sincerity during work. I hear too many stories about labs being
> : >>>> stubborn in harness about sniffing, scavenging, and snatching up
> : >>>> people's food, being far too high-strung, getting easily excited 
> and
> : >>>> wild about little things, and having inappropriate house manners 
> when
> : >>>> out of harness. It's very possible that this is the case because
> there
> : >>>> are more labs in the field than any other breed. Also, I know that
> : >>>> dogs are creatures of opportunity and it rests more on the handler 
> to
> : >>>> maintain consistent control of their  dog than it rests on the dog 
> to
> : >>>> restrain itself. despite having a lax handler. It may be true as 
> well
> : >>>> that some of these behaviors are prominent because schools are 
> giving
> : >>>> out adolescent dogs, and the inappropriate behaviors probably fade
> : >>>> with age.
> : >>>>
> : >>>>
> : >>>>
> : >>>> On 9/16/13, Sherry Gomes <sherriola at gmail.com> wrote:
> : >>>>> I have to agree. My labs aren't goofy in their work, and I like 
> the
> : >>>>> silly side in their off work hours. My retired Bianca, a black 
> lab,
> : >>>>> I'd
> : >>>> challenge
> : >>>>> against any breed with a stronger work ethic. I have pretty
> : >>>>> specialized needs in my guide. I need a dog that is 100 percent 
> easy
> : >>>>> to manage, but at the same time, the dog has to be smart with 
> great
> : >>>>> initiative. I can fall over a tiny crack in a sidewalk, for
> instance.
> : >>>>> And I must be a route traveler, because the longer I am on my 
> feet,
> : >>>>> the more pain and time for recovering I might have to have. So, I
> : >>>>> need my dogs to be smart, to learn what I need to have done, where
> to
> : >>>>> be cautious, to be able to walk at a slow pace without getting
> : >>>>> distracted and not to have the sort of initiative
> : >>>> that
> : >>>>> makes them want to explore a little. During training, Bianca 
> picked
> : >>>>> up everything I needed. She'd slow or even stop at dips for
> driveways
> : >>>>> on a sidewalk, or hesitate at the top of a wheel chair ramp as we
> : >>>>> approached a corner. She instinctively seemed to know what could
> trip
> : >>>>> me up and she'd look for the smoothest part of the area. She would
> : >>>>> remember a place we'd been to after one visit. When I worked at 
> GDB,
> : >>>>> I had a nightmarish
> : >>>> crossing
> : >>>>> on my way to work, the sort of crossing I dread and avoid at all
> : >>>>> costs.
> : >>>>> There was no way to avoid it, and Bianca got me through it
> : >>>>> confidently, wagging her tail. I heard lots of people say labs and
> : >>>>> goldens don't have a strong work ethic and I think that's as wrong
> as
> : >>>>> someone else saying all shepherds are too hyper or can't handle
> : >>>>> stressful work, or any of the
> : >>>> other
> : >>>>> generalizations people make about breeds. There are good dogs and
> not
> : >>>> great
> : >>>>> dogs in all breeds, and not all individual dogs make great guides.
> : >>>>> I've seen guides from breeds I wouldn't have expected that were
> : >>>>> amazing, and I've seen horrible labs. I've had labs that didn't 
> work
> : >>>>> out who weren't made to be guides. I've only ever worked labs and
> : >>>>> goldens, and I'd give a lot to have another golden, but the 
> reasons
> I
> : >>>>> say that would probably have my golden from 15 years ago career
> : >>>>> changed now. She was very much a one-person dog who took a long 
> time
> : >>>>> to turn over to her trainer and then to me and had severe 
> separation
> : >>>>> anxiety. In the world of cookie cutter training and dogs, I don't
> : >>>>> think they'd give her the time she needed today. But man, was she
> : >>>>> ever one devoted and bonded dog. She have worked across the fires 
> of
> : >>>>> hell for me if I'd asked her to. And yet, most people think 
> goldens
> : >>>>> are silly. So it all comes down to that I think labs are 
> predominant
> : >>>>> because they adjust well
> : >>>> to
> : >>>>> the changes in their lives, they are healthy, intelligent and
> : >>>>> friendly. A dog that can work and live in most any environment.
> : >>>>>
> : >>>>> Sherry
> : >>>>>
> : >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> : >>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tracy
> : >>>>> Carcione
> : >>>>> Sent: Monday, September 16, 2013 10:27 AM
> : >>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog 
> Users
> : >>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Why Labradors?
> : >>>>>
> : >>>>> I hear people talk about labrador goofiness, but none of my 5 labs
> : >>>>> have been what I'd call goofy, certainly not in harness.  Some 
> have
> : >>>>> been quite playful out of harness, but very serious as soon as the
> : >>> harness went on.
> : >>>>> And, as for work ethic, they don't have the intensity of a 
> shepherd,
> : >>>>> but they do take their work seriously.
> : >>>>> I guess I'm not real clear on what you mean by "work ethic".
> : >>>>> Tracy
> : >>>>>
> : >>>>>> Hi,
> : >>>>>> I never thought about the adjustment to a kennel environment as a
> : >>>>>> contributing factor toward what breed dominates the field, but it
> : >>>>>> makes sense. Also, coat and health maintenance seem like sensible
> : >>>>>> reasons on the surface. Obviously, we want healthy dogs, but
> : >>>>>> personally, I would look for a more serious work ethic and less
> : >>>>>> quirkiness and goofiness in a guide dog.
> : >>>>>> I just thought it would be an interesting question since there 
> are
> : >>>>>> two US guide dog schools that only train German shepherds as 
> guide
> : >>>>>> dogs, and now there is a school in the south that trains several
> : >>>>>> breeds for guide work, none of which are labradors.
> : >>>>>>
> : >>>>>>
> : >>>>>>
> : >>>>>> On 9/16/13, Tracy Carcione <carcione at access.net> wrote:
> : >>>>>>> I think labradors have many excellent guide dog qualities, and
> that
> : >>>>>>> is why they're so dominant in the field.
> : >>>>>>> They're intelligent, but don't have to second-guess every single
> : >>>>>>> thing their partner asks them to do.
> : >>>>>>> They're adaptable to a wide variety of environments and a wide
> : >>>>>>> variety of handlers.  Labs can work well with everything from 
> the
> : >>>>>>> busy college student to the elderly person who may not get out
> : >>>>>>> every single day.
> : >>>>>>> They have an easy-care coat, which does not go through big
> shedding
> : >>>>>>> periods, and doesn't tend to get matted.
> : >>>>>>> They are generally healthy--not particularly prone to allergies,
> : >>>>>>> digestive complaints, or other medical issues.
> : >>>>>>> These two things make them easy keepers, even for inexperienced
> dog
> : >>>>>>> people.
> : >>>>>>> They tend to be even-tempered, not prone to snappiness or
> timidity.
> : >>>>>>> From what I hear, they are less likely to be upset by a kennel
> : >>>>>>> environment, which is helpful to the big schools.
> : >>>>>>>
> : >>>>>>> I've had 6 dogs, and 5 have been labs.  Shepherds are very
> : >>>>>>> handsome, but the one I had was pretty high-maintenance.  I'd be
> : >>>>>>> open to a different breed next time, but I won't be the least
> upset
> : >>>>>>> if I get another lab.
> : >>>>>>> I
> : >>>>>>> think they're one of the finest breeds around.
> : >>>>>>> Tracy
> : >>>>>>>
> : >>>>>>>> There are certainly other breeds besides labs that make good
> guide
> : >>>>>>>> dogs and other types of service dogs, but I have also seen
> certain
> : >>>>>>>> breeds, such as collies, which, JMHO, should not be service 
> dogs.
> : >>>>>>>> Some breeds are smart, but do not have the want-to-please
> : >>>>>>>> mentality  found in some of the breeds more commonly used for
> : >>>>>>>> guide dogs.
> : >>>>>>>> As for goldens, I think that they may be a little more laid 
> back
> : >>>>>>>> than labs.
> : >>>>>>>> I do not know if German Shepherds are more sensative to
> : >>>>>>>> corrections, but I do know that they are more likely to not eat
> or
> : >>>>>>>> get slightly sick when adjusting to change or in stressful
> : >>>>>>>> situations, such as traveling.
> : >>>>>>>> Also,
> : >>>>>>>> they are more likely to have medical or aggression problems,
> which
> : >>>>>>>> is partiallywhy, sadly, GDB no longer trains German Shepherds.
> : >>>>>>>> I have not interacted much with dobermen pinchers, but, from 
> what
> : >>>>>>>> other people have said, I'm not quite sure why they are not 
> used
> : >>>>>>>> more. I guess that, once schools find breeds that work, they 
> are
> : >>>>>>>> less likely to try something new.
> : >>>>>>>>
> : >>>>>>>> Nicole
> : >>>>>>>>
> : >>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> : >>>>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of 
> Raven
> : >>>>>>>> Tolliver
> : >>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, September 15, 2013 9:22 AM
> : >>>>>>>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
> : >>>>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] Why Labradors?
> : >>>>>>>>
> : >>>>>>>> Hi,
> : >>>>>>>> I am wondering why the majority of dogs trained in most guide 
> dog
> : >>>>>>>> programs are labrador retrievers. What is it about that breed
> that
> : >>>>>>>> makes them dominate in the guide dog field?
> : >>>>>>>> I notice that in other service dog areas, this breed is not 
> used
> : >>>>>>>> as often.
> : >>>>>>>> And when people train their own guide dogs or have them 
> privately
> : >>>>>>>> trained, it seems that labradors are rarely chosen. What
> advantage
> : >>>>>>>> do guide dog programs feel labradors have over other breeds 
> like
> : >>>>>>>> the golden retriever, German shepherd, doberman pinscher, or 
> even
> : >>>>>>>> the Australian shepherd.
> : >>>>>>>> When I asked a GEB instructor why they didn't pass more goldens
> : >>>>>>>> through, they said it was because a lot of goldens (their 
> goldens
> : >>>>>>>> anyway), didn't have the confidence it took to be a guide dog.
> : >>>>>>>> They were not confident enough to make independent or executive
> : >>>>>>>> decisions.
> : >>>>>>>> Also, I have heard that German shepherds are more sensitive to
> : >>>>>>>> corrections, and also require more of a routine. They do not
> adapt
> : >>>>>>>> to new environments or change as well as other breeds.
> : >>>>>>>> Do you guys find this to be true? What do you think?
> : >>>>>>>> Thanks.
> : >>>>>>>>
> : >>>>>>>> --
> : >>>>>>>> Raven
> : >>>>>>>>
> : >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> : >>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
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> info
> : >>>>>>>> for
> : >>>>>>>> nagdu:
> : >>>>>>>>
> : >>>>>
> : >>>>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40waveca
> : >>>> ble.co
> : >>>>>>>> m
> : >>>>>>>>
> : >>>>>>>>
> : >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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> : >>>> et
> : >>>>>>>>
> : >>>>>>>
> : >>>>>>>
> : >>>>>>>
> : >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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> : >>>>>>> l.com
> : >>>>>>>
> : >>>>>>
> : >>>>>>
> : >>>>>> --
> : >>>>>> Raven
> : >>>>>>
> : >>>>>> _______________________________________________
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> : >>>>>>
> : >>>>>
> : >>>>>
> : >>>>>
> : >>>>> _______________________________________________
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> : >>>>> nagdu:
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> : >>>>>
> : >>>>>
> : >>>>> _______________________________________________
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> : >>>>>
> : >>>>
> : >>>>
> : >>>> --
> : >>>> Raven
> : >>>>
> : >>>> _______________________________________________
> : >>>> nagdu mailing list
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> : >>>> nagdu:
> : >>>>
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> : >>>> om
> : >>>>
> : >>>>
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> : >>>>
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> : >>>> ail.com
> : >>>>
> : >>>
> : >>> _______________________________________________
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> : >>> nagdu:
> : >>>
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> : >>>
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> : >>> nagdu:
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> : >>>
> : >>
> : >>
> : >> --
> : >> Raven
> : >>
> : >> _______________________________________________
> : >> nagdu mailing list
> : >> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> : >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
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> : >> nagdu:
> : >>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com
> : >>
> : >
> : >
> : > --
> : > "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty
> : > recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity:
> : > but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on
> : > their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence
> : >
> : > _______________________________________________
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> : > nagdu:
> : > 
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> : >
> :
> :
> : -- 
> : Raven
> :
> : _______________________________________________
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