[nagdu] Why Labradors?

Tue Sep 17 16:12:40 UTC 2013

Raven,

For some reason, I've preferred "something other than lab" as a guide. 
Don't know why, since I like labs. I guess there are other breeds I like 
better. But I've come to the conclusion that when/if I go through a 
program, I will no doubt be thrilled with a lab if that's what they 
match me with.

It seems like another plus with labs in the business sense is that there 
is a fair amount of variety in their temperaments, so more available 
matches per litter. There are speedy, energetic labs and mellow, 
laid-back labs. So apparently, they are less one-size-fits-all.

Then there are poodles... /lol/ I had viewed labs as super hyper and 
goofy and was shocked to learn they were being used as guides. Then I 
observed a couple in harness and realized they were great. It does make 
sense, since they are hunting -- working -- dogs from before they became 
the designated pet breed. Then I got a poodle, so I now see labs as 
mellow and serious, even the pet lab pups doing their labby thing at hte 
park. Lab owners see me as just plain nuts when I mention it must be 
nice to have such a placid puppy... Until I explain that I have a 
poodle. Oh. /lol/

I've known some hyper goofy pet goldens, too, but they seem to make 
really great guides. For now, I'm still debating the poodle vs. dobie 
choice for my next, and I still have my lifelong shepherd yen. Except 
for the shedding there. Poodle has me and my spouse spoiled. So it's 
down to poodle vs. dobie.

Tami

On 09/17/2013 07:49 AM, Raven Tolliver wrote:
> Hi Tracy,
> That's promising. I suppose it wouldn't kill to try out a lab, several
> years from now, when I'm applying for the next dog, if that's what I
> choose to do. I mean, I would still shoot for a golden, but if I ended
> up with a well-behaved, low energy, calm, gentle labrador, I would
> stick with it to really experience the difference between the two
> breeds.
>
> On 9/17/13, Tracy Carcione <carcione at access.net> wrote:
>> Hi Raven.  You'd need a lab like my Benny, then.  He's extremely quiet.  I
>> say he has a stuffed animal switch.  He lies down, flips the switch, and
>> turns himself into a stuffed animal.  He only dances around for a few
>> minutes a day.  I've never met another dog like him.
>> Tracy
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Raven Tolliver" <ravend729 at gmail.com>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Monday, September 16, 2013 11:18 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Why Labradors?
>>
>>
>>> Yeah, I think the puppy-like behavior is what bothers me. If I wanted
>>> a puppy, I would get one. That insane behavior and getting into things
>>> is exactly what I'm referring to when I say they are high-strung,
>>> goofy,and quirky. The running in circles, barking or growling--that's
>>> a little nuts. Going after everything on the floor, or jumping up to
>>> grab things that are on counters or high up--that's a nuisance.
>>> I just don't think a labrador would ever be for me. I prefer a more
>>> laid-back, mature, and well-mannered golden. I like a dog that's
>>> perfectly fine with working all day from 9 to 9, but also okay with
>>> sitting around the apartment all day with a couple play sessions
>>> thrown in. I just don't need a dog with high energy requirements.
>>> There's other reasons why I wouldn't get a lab, but the ones above are
>>> big contributing factors.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 9/16/13, Darla Rogers <djrogers0628 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Hi Debbie,
>>>> Leone sounds really cute, though I haven't always experienced, with
>>>> my labs, the puppyish behavior until 5.  Huck still has some, but he
>>>> never
>>>> bothers anything in the house though he is much happier working and
>>>> going
>>>> places.
>>>> The puppy part, if it isn't destructive, is one of the things I love
>>>> about labs; they enjoy life!!!!  They usually enjoy their work, too, and
>>>> they are seldom in a bad mood.
>>>> Darla & HANDSOME Huck
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Debbie Cole
>>>> Sent: Monday, September 16, 2013 5:43 PM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Why Labradors?
>>>>
>>>> Labradores... they always have the minds and hearts of a puppy.  they
>>>> just
>>>> never seem to grow up.  We need to baby proof our house.  No socks or
>>>> objects left where she can get to them.  Coffee Tables must be cleaned.
>>>> Remote controls up high.
>>>>
>>>> My Leone she gets this playful behavior mostly in the evenings after her
>>>> 2nd
>>>> to last walk.  (we're in an apartment with no yard) If i'm at the
>>>> computer
>>>> she will look at me from 5 feet away then start barking and running
>>>> around
>>>> the living room.  this means let's play.  she's 5.
>>>> Still a puppy.  So I get her bone or a tug toy and i play tug with her
>>>> or
>>>> throw her kongs.  Until she's tired.
>>>>
>>>> Once a Lab always a puppy.
>>>>
>>>> Debbie & Leone
>>>>
>>>> On 9/16/13, Sherry Gomes <sherriola at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> My Bianca has had horrible house behavior, but I attribute that to her
>>>>> intelligence. Her mind was always looking for something to do. I
>>>>> learned dog proofing to a level I'd never needed before. Now she's
>>>>> nearly thirteen, she can't physically get into the mischief she used
>>>>> to do. But since nobody, dog or human is perfect, I accept the
>>>>> negative side of their personalities. On the other hand, Olga, my
>>>>> current working dog, would no more get into trouble in the house than
>>>>> I would jump off a bridge! But though she's smart and a solid steady
>>>>> worker, she doesn't have that edge and absolute brilliance Bianca has.
>>>>> But she is the dog I need for my life as it is now. I work from home
>>>>> now, and when Bianca was working, she'd have gone crazy with that kind
>>>>> of schedule.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Raven
>>>>> Tolliver
>>>>> Sent: Monday, September 16, 2013 11:58 AM
>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Why Labradors?
>>>>>
>>>>> I meant to put more of a focus on a lab's quirkiness than their
>>>>> goofiness. I've definitely trained labradors that didn't goof off
>>>>> during the session unless there was a toy involved, of course.
>>>>> by work ethic, I guess I'm referring to the dog's concentration on and
>>>>> sincerity during work. I hear too many stories about labs being
>>>>> stubborn in harness about sniffing, scavenging, and snatching up
>>>>> people's food, being far too high-strung, getting easily excited and
>>>>> wild about little things, and having inappropriate house manners when
>>>>> out of harness. It's very possible that this is the case because there
>>>>> are more labs in the field than any other breed. Also, I know that
>>>>> dogs are creatures of opportunity and it rests more on the handler to
>>>>> maintain consistent control of their  dog than it rests on the dog to
>>>>> restrain itself. despite having a lax handler. It may be true as well
>>>>> that some of these behaviors are prominent because schools are giving
>>>>> out adolescent dogs, and the inappropriate behaviors probably fade
>>>>> with age.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 9/16/13, Sherry Gomes <sherriola at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> I have to agree. My labs aren't goofy in their work, and I like the
>>>>>> silly side in their off work hours. My retired Bianca, a black lab,
>>>>>> I'd
>>>>> challenge
>>>>>> against any breed with a stronger work ethic. I have pretty
>>>>>> specialized needs in my guide. I need a dog that is 100 percent easy
>>>>>> to manage, but at the same time, the dog has to be smart with great
>>>>>> initiative. I can fall over a tiny crack in a sidewalk, for instance.
>>>>>> And I must be a route traveler, because the longer I am on my feet,
>>>>>> the more pain and time for recovering I might have to have. So, I
>>>>>> need my dogs to be smart, to learn what I need to have done, where to
>>>>>> be cautious, to be able to walk at a slow pace without getting
>>>>>> distracted and not to have the sort of initiative
>>>>> that
>>>>>> makes them want to explore a little. During training, Bianca picked
>>>>>> up everything I needed. She'd slow or even stop at dips for driveways
>>>>>> on a sidewalk, or hesitate at the top of a wheel chair ramp as we
>>>>>> approached a corner. She instinctively seemed to know what could trip
>>>>>> me up and she'd look for the smoothest part of the area. She would
>>>>>> remember a place we'd been to after one visit. When I worked at GDB,
>>>>>> I had a nightmarish
>>>>> crossing
>>>>>> on my way to work, the sort of crossing I dread and avoid at all
>>>>>> costs.
>>>>>> There was no way to avoid it, and Bianca got me through it
>>>>>> confidently, wagging her tail. I heard lots of people say labs and
>>>>>> goldens don't have a strong work ethic and I think that's as wrong as
>>>>>> someone else saying all shepherds are too hyper or can't handle
>>>>>> stressful work, or any of the
>>>>> other
>>>>>> generalizations people make about breeds. There are good dogs and not
>>>>> great
>>>>>> dogs in all breeds, and not all individual dogs make great guides.
>>>>>> I've seen guides from breeds I wouldn't have expected that were
>>>>>> amazing, and I've seen horrible labs. I've had labs that didn't work
>>>>>> out who weren't made to be guides. I've only ever worked labs and
>>>>>> goldens, and I'd give a lot to have another golden, but the reasons I
>>>>>> say that would probably have my golden from 15 years ago career
>>>>>> changed now. She was very much a one-person dog who took a long time
>>>>>> to turn over to her trainer and then to me and had severe separation
>>>>>> anxiety. In the world of cookie cutter training and dogs, I don't
>>>>>> think they'd give her the time she needed today. But man, was she
>>>>>> ever one devoted and bonded dog. She have worked across the fires of
>>>>>> hell for me if I'd asked her to. And yet, most people think goldens
>>>>>> are silly. So it all comes down to that I think labs are predominant
>>>>>> because they adjust well
>>>>> to
>>>>>> the changes in their lives, they are healthy, intelligent and
>>>>>> friendly. A dog that can work and live in most any environment.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sherry
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tracy
>>>>>> Carcione
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, September 16, 2013 10:27 AM
>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Why Labradors?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I hear people talk about labrador goofiness, but none of my 5 labs
>>>>>> have been what I'd call goofy, certainly not in harness.  Some have
>>>>>> been quite playful out of harness, but very serious as soon as the
>>>> harness went on.
>>>>>> And, as for work ethic, they don't have the intensity of a shepherd,
>>>>>> but they do take their work seriously.
>>>>>> I guess I'm not real clear on what you mean by "work ethic".
>>>>>> Tracy
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>> I never thought about the adjustment to a kennel environment as a
>>>>>>> contributing factor toward what breed dominates the field, but it
>>>>>>> makes sense. Also, coat and health maintenance seem like sensible
>>>>>>> reasons on the surface. Obviously, we want healthy dogs, but
>>>>>>> personally, I would look for a more serious work ethic and less
>>>>>>> quirkiness and goofiness in a guide dog.
>>>>>>> I just thought it would be an interesting question since there are
>>>>>>> two US guide dog schools that only train German shepherds as guide
>>>>>>> dogs, and now there is a school in the south that trains several
>>>>>>> breeds for guide work, none of which are labradors.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 9/16/13, Tracy Carcione <carcione at access.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>> I think labradors have many excellent guide dog qualities, and that
>>>>>>>> is why they're so dominant in the field.
>>>>>>>> They're intelligent, but don't have to second-guess every single
>>>>>>>> thing their partner asks them to do.
>>>>>>>> They're adaptable to a wide variety of environments and a wide
>>>>>>>> variety of handlers.  Labs can work well with everything from the
>>>>>>>> busy college student to the elderly person who may not get out
>>>>>>>> every single day.
>>>>>>>> They have an easy-care coat, which does not go through big shedding
>>>>>>>> periods, and doesn't tend to get matted.
>>>>>>>> They are generally healthy--not particularly prone to allergies,
>>>>>>>> digestive complaints, or other medical issues.
>>>>>>>> These two things make them easy keepers, even for inexperienced dog
>>>>>>>> people.
>>>>>>>> They tend to be even-tempered, not prone to snappiness or timidity.
>>>>>>>>  From what I hear, they are less likely to be upset by a kennel
>>>>>>>> environment, which is helpful to the big schools.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I've had 6 dogs, and 5 have been labs.  Shepherds are very
>>>>>>>> handsome, but the one I had was pretty high-maintenance.  I'd be
>>>>>>>> open to a different breed next time, but I won't be the least upset
>>>>>>>> if I get another lab.
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> think they're one of the finest breeds around.
>>>>>>>> Tracy
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There are certainly other breeds besides labs that make good guide
>>>>>>>>> dogs and other types of service dogs, but I have also seen certain
>>>>>>>>> breeds, such as collies, which, JMHO, should not be service dogs.
>>>>>>>>> Some breeds are smart, but do not have the want-to-please
>>>>>>>>> mentality  found in some of the breeds more commonly used for
>>>>>>>>> guide dogs.
>>>>>>>>> As for goldens, I think that they may be a little more laid back
>>>>>>>>> than labs.
>>>>>>>>> I do not know if German Shepherds are more sensative to
>>>>>>>>> corrections, but I do know that they are more likely to not eat or
>>>>>>>>> get slightly sick when adjusting to change or in stressful
>>>>>>>>> situations, such as traveling.
>>>>>>>>> Also,
>>>>>>>>> they are more likely to have medical or aggression problems, which
>>>>>>>>> is partiallywhy, sadly, GDB no longer trains German Shepherds.
>>>>>>>>> I have not interacted much with dobermen pinchers, but, from what
>>>>>>>>> other people have said, I'm not quite sure why they are not used
>>>>>>>>> more. I guess that, once schools find breeds that work, they are
>>>>>>>>> less likely to try something new.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Nicole
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Raven
>>>>>>>>> Tolliver
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, September 15, 2013 9:22 AM
>>>>>>>>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] Why Labradors?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>> I am wondering why the majority of dogs trained in most guide dog
>>>>>>>>> programs are labrador retrievers. What is it about that breed that
>>>>>>>>> makes them dominate in the guide dog field?
>>>>>>>>> I notice that in other service dog areas, this breed is not used
>>>>>>>>> as often.
>>>>>>>>> And when people train their own guide dogs or have them privately
>>>>>>>>> trained, it seems that labradors are rarely chosen. What advantage
>>>>>>>>> do guide dog programs feel labradors have over other breeds like
>>>>>>>>> the golden retriever, German shepherd, doberman pinscher, or even
>>>>>>>>> the Australian shepherd.
>>>>>>>>> When I asked a GEB instructor why they didn't pass more goldens
>>>>>>>>> through, they said it was because a lot of goldens (their goldens
>>>>>>>>> anyway), didn't have the confidence it took to be a guide dog.
>>>>>>>>> They were not confident enough to make independent or executive
>>>>>>>>> decisions.
>>>>>>>>> Also, I have heard that German shepherds are more sensitive to
>>>>>>>>> corrections, and also require more of a routine. They do not adapt
>>>>>>>>> to new environments or change as well as other breeds.
>>>>>>>>> Do you guys find this to be true? What do you think?
>>>>>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Raven
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> ble.co
>>>>>>>>> m
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Raven
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Raven
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
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>>>
>>> --
>>> Raven
>>>
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