[nagdu] barking in harness?

Fri Aug 1 03:54:52 UTC 2014

Daryl,

	This makes perfect sense. From what I have heard, there are very few
animals that realize that their reflection is just a reflection; I think
that elephants are one of them. Lexia has never barked at her reflection,
but the rather neurotic  Border Collie mix that was the family pet for
several years, who I have mentioned a few times, used to do this all the
time. She would bark at her reflection in the mirror or in the sky lights.

Vivianna,

	I truly hope that you do not treat your dog the way that you make it
sound. Yes, sometimes, dogs just do things that they should do, and, yes,
there are sometimes cases where there is no rational reason, such as
possibly jumping out of the car ahead of the handler. However, dogs do not
just bark to bark. They bark because they are excited or they are scared or
they are angry or what have you. No, it is not always possible to tell why
the dog is barking. If it seems really random, then, yes, a correction, but
then a reward. Do you reward your dog after the bad behavior stops? I am not
completely against using corrections, but I use them sparingly and follow
with praise when I get the result that I want. If you reread the email that
Daryl wrote, it is clear that the barking occurred in one place, so it was
clear that something in that area was causing the barking, and it was
possible to figure out what. Stopping a behavior without finding out what is
causing the behavior is a bad idea. It might be necessary at first, but it
needs to be addressed later. Forcing a dog to suppress emotions without
knowing what is causing them is bad. Suppose that your dog is afraid of
something and starts barking. You manage to get the dog to stop barking
using corrections, but you do not help the dog overcome the fear. So,
whenever you approach whatever it is, the dog is now double afraid. The dog
is afraid and wants to bark, but will not bark because the dog is afraid of
being corrected. It may seem as though the dog is okay, but, some day, it
might get to be too much for the dog, and you do not know what will happen.

Nicole and Lexia who does not bark and does not get corrected if the reason
is unknown

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Vivianna via
nagdu
Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2014 2:42 PM
To: Buddy Brannan
Cc: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] barking in harness?

i completely disagree.
say you are walking down the street on your way somewhere and your dog
starts barking.  you hear nothing, there is no dog coming out after your
dog.  is this acceptable?  no.  it's not.
maybe the dog barked at a bird, maybe a squirrel, maybe a shadow, whatever.
i don't care, barking is not allowed.  end of story.
sometimes it's time for a correction.  maybe it's a harsh no, maybe it's a
quick leash correction, whatever.  sometimes dogs are just plain old doing
something that they should not be doing.

vivianna
On Jul 31, 2014, at 4:28 PM, Buddy Brannan <buddy at brannan.name> wrote:

> While you've got some good points here, I think it really is important to
know why something's happening. Certainly if you know why something's
happening, you can use that to some advantage. Sure, you want to stop an
undesirable behavior. But would it not be easier to stop the behavior if you
understand its source? If for no other reason than setting things up such
that training opportunities can be had?
> 
> On Jul 31, 2014, at 5:21 PM, Vivianna via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
>> you are rationalizing.  sometimes bad behavior is just that, bad
behavior.
>> no, means no.  
>> no barking.  lol.
>> you don't want her to start that, it's hard to stop and next it will be
in a mall or restaurant.  wait, i think you already told us that she barks
in stores?
>> even if there is a dog there, so what?  she should still not be barking
at it.  
>> but, that's just my opinion.  i believe that sometimes a good no and a
leash correction are in order.  mind you, i am not taking 2 hands and
flipping my dog on her back.  lol.
>> and, yes, most times behaviors can be stopped with a word or a
re-direction.  but, some things just are not acceptable in a guide dog and,
barking is one of them.  
>> even though many schools give you treats for the dogs, every single one
of them also gives you a correction collar on that dog also.
>> all this talk of treats and no leash corrections does get me going.
sometimes a dog is just not paying attention or, yes, even, being bad.  if
your dog runs a curb and walks you out into traffic then you will be in big
troubles.  so, not running curbs is a big thing for me.  you don't stop in
the middle of traffic and try and re-direct that dog.  so, i make it
perfectly clear that stopping at curbs is a complete must, all the time,
every time, no exceptions.
>> it's my belief that a public place can even ask you to leave if your dog
is being a nuisance such as barking or being otherwise out of control.
>> 
>> and, just FYI, i am really a nice person, ask anybody who knows me.  but,
i do say it how it is and don't beat around the bush.
>> 
>> vivianna
>> On Jul 31, 2014, at 3:30 PM, Daryl Marie via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
wrote:
>> 
>>> Hey matthew,
>>> In previous posts, I have stated that I am moving away from corrections
and towads redirection or positive reinforcement.
>>> 
>>> To the list:
>>> I think I may have solved the mystery!
>>> At that time of day, the sun reflects off the plateglass front door of
the office downstairs, so her reflection bounces back at her. She approaches
the door, so does the reflection/perceived other dog. Her nose hits the
ground, so does the reflection/other dog. Because this area is very small,
she may feel slightly trapped, thus leading to the barking...
>>> Does this make sense? or am I just rationalizing?
>>> 
>>> Daryl
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Matthew Dyer <ilovecountrymusic483 at gmail.com>
>>> To: Daryl Marie <crazymusician at shaw.ca>, NAGDU Mailing List, the 
>>> National Association of Guide Dog Users <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Thu, 31 Jul 2014 14:06:19 -0600 (MDT)
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] barking in harness?
>>> 
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> Yes, is he used to do the same thing. They ended up switching me out
with a new dog that I have now. Her name is Chrissy. In any event, just keep
working with her. And I would continue to correct her if she continues.
Otherwise if it does continue, contact the school and see what they can do
to help you. Thanks.
>>> 
>>> Matthew
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone.
>>> Skype: graduater2004. Email and face time/iMessage: 
>>> ilovecountrymusic483 at gmail.com
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Jul 31, 2014, at 3:25 PM, Daryl Marie via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Hey!
>>>> Just had a funny thing happen today. A group of us went out for lunch,
then when we came back, Jenny just let out a couple of short barks (bark,
pause, bark, pause, bark) at something or someone on the other side of the
glass door leading to the office downstairs in our building. She was able to
be redirected easily, so we went upstairs, took a 5-10-minute break, and
went back downstairs (I thought she was barking at Gizmo, who I wrote about
previously).  I figured, hey, training opportunity!
>>>> Well, we got downstairs, and again, she barked once at something on the
other side of the door. I didn't hear anything or anyone, so I had her lie
down by the second door (the one that leads upstairs), and I opened the door
to the office downstairs, and there was nothing or no one there.
>>>> She has never done this before (except once at Gizmo), but people at
work seem to think there's another dog down there.
>>>> Any pointers, advice?
>>>> 
>>>> Daryl
>>>> 
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>>> 
>>> 
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>> 
>> 
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> 

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