[nagdu] An Introduction

Fri Aug 22 17:34:01 UTC 2014

Valerie,

Loved your description of the akita. A lot of that sounds very similar 
to poodle, and I deal with a number of facets of training in much the 
way you describe.

Getting sighted assistance isn't something I even consider any more. I 
have some sighted friends who can give useful feedback about what is 
going on, so if I happen to be walking with one of them with my trainee, 
that will be great. But, honestly, having eyesight does not equate with 
having a clue about what is happening, what just happened, or where on 
the planet one happens to be at any given second. /lol/ Convincing 
someone to leave off micromanaging the dog is another hurdle. So, when 
I'm doing real training, I ditch the sighties. For me, traffic training 
is what I will be doing all the time when loose leash walking with the 
cane for navigation, letting the pup observe and letting my natural 
reactions show when I'm uncertain about a safe crossing or start to step 
forward then change my mind because I notice a car may be too close or 
whatever comes up. I used to let Mitzi watch at busy, complicated 
intersections and would kinda talk to her about what was going on. I was 
also talking my way through how I planned to manage those intersections 
with her as a guide in the future and how I planned to train. She seemed 
to pick up a lot from my planning somehow, whether I talked myself 
through it or not. I guess I gave off body language while I was thinking 
how I would train her about overheads or whatever, so by the time I was 
ready to put my plan into action, she had it covered.

As for the turning Zion is doing... At his age, I wouldn't worry about 
it too much. Then again, I followed a different time frame, not even 
considering having Mitzi in a working type harness until she was at 
least a year. I did use a walking harness similar in style to the guide 
harness I ended up using, but I let her go out in front and learn the 
directional voice cues and how to clear obstacles and remember 
independently to stop at curbs and all that jazz. We learned to walk 
together in a guide harness last of all, and I used gradual 
approximation to teach guide position while we were putting all the rest 
of the pieces we had learned together into working form. I plan to do it 
pretty much the same way with Loki, with some adaptations to account for 
his greater size. Mitzi is just the right size for me, and strong enough 
for the physical aspects of the work but not able to truly overpower me. 
I like a fast pace, but she can walk me out of my shoes if I let her 
hustle. Loki is going to need to learn pacing earlier in his training. 
We're already working on that a little with heeling at different speeds 
around the yard, and so far he thinks it's a great fun game. /smile/

I like the way Mitzi pays attention to everything, and her body language 
tells me a whole lot about what is going on and whether I need to do 
something about it, so by now if she moves out of position at a curb or 
something, I move with her. She will body block at steps if she senses 
I'm not paying attention, and even at curbs if she has concerns about 
the traffic and wants to be sure I'm not going to do anything stupid or 
if she thinks she might have to hustle me out of the way of a cyclist, 
skateboarder or car that decides to drive on the sidewalk. Yes, we have 
dealt with a car driving on the sidewalk right where we were standing a 
split second before.

So that's the sort of thing I'm thinking of when I say I wouldn't worry 
about perfect position at this point in Zion's training but would let 
him examine the world and learn to communicate about it, taking the time 
to let the finer points come together. But you know your dog best, and I 
think we all do it slightly differently according to our own needs and 
preferences and knowing our own dogs.

Tami

On 08/22/2014 01:06 AM, Valerie Gibson via nagdu wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I respect your oppinion and if I could, I would love to be spotted by a sighted person who knows about guide dog training.  The only problem is finding a sighted person who can offer constructive critisisms without making it sound as if "well, I knew you couldn't do this all along".
>
> As I've stated, it's hard to find a sighted trainer who's willing to give a blind owner trainer a shot.
>
> With that being said, Zion's not at the stage where we're putting a lot of imphasis on street crossings.  The most we'll do is suburbean streets.  Again, as stated, I'll never put him in a situation where he'd fail because he's only 9 months.
>
> Akitas reach physical and psychological maturation at the age of 2 and 3 respectively, so he might not work on street crossing until he's about a year or a year and a half.  It's just going to depend on him.  This might give me time to find a spotter.  Even if I had a sighted dog trainer tell me what he or she would be looking for in terms of walking and form, I could pass that onto a sighted friend and that friend could act as the go between...I hope that made sense.  However it seems to me that a lot of guide dog schools don't wish to divulge their training secrets, but maybe I'm mistaken.
>
> In regards to the harnes I've got: I showed it to my friends and because they were trained with a different type of handle, they don't like mine, but tthey all say, "If it works for you, use it".  They admit that they like their harnesses better because it's what they are used to.  Zion and I have adapted our walking styles toone another rather than my finding a harness that adapts me to him.  Maybe it's not the right way to do things, but it's worked for us, and since I'm the only one who's trained him, I figured it doesn't really matter.
> I do have a question for you guys who train your own dogs.
>
> Zion does this thing where he  will technically walkforward, but he'll turn the front part of his body one way or the other to see  something in the distance.  It's harder to fix when he's turned in my direction and he's almost cutting in my path.  How do you guys handle this?  I don't know if it's just because he's a puppy and easily distracted, but sometimes he walks like a drunk dog. lol. Any thoughts on fixing this?
>
> Thank you guys for reading this.
>
>
> On Aug 21, 2014, at 10:10 PM, debby phillips via nagdu<nagdu at nfbnet.org>  wrote:
>
>> >Hi Valerie, your post was very interesting, and I can see that you have put a lot of time and thought in to the process.  I do not believe that every blind person should and could train their own dog, but I have seen one that was awesome.  The man who trained him did a great job.  I believe though that his next dog was from one of the schools.  I think I do have a couple of concerns.  One is this: traffic is becoming more and more dangerous.  It doesn't mean that we should all stay home and never go out.  Lol.  But it does mean that we, and our dogs need to be extra aware.  Gone are the days of simply listening for a surge of parallel traffic and heading across the street.  There are turning lanes, right on red, and cars are just plain quieter, and I'm not even talking about the hybrids.  Seeing Eye does a lot of traffic training with our dogs, some of it using the general public and some of it that they set up.  Keeping a certain distance from traffic is important.  So if you can
 find a trainer who is willing to work with you on that part, I recommend that.  I hope that ow am not sounding like I am against what you are doing, I'm not.  I admire you for your effort, and wish you success.
>> >
>> >I may offend some folks when I say the following: I do not believe that a blind person can train me with a dog.  Dogs and people move faster than people who travel with canes, (though I know some very fast walkers who use canes.  There are certain parts of instruction that a blind person could do, like some of the dog care, things like that.  But instructors see how the dog and person are walking together, they can often figure out whether a different kind of harness is needed, for instance.  Right away, my instructor saw that I was not giving Neena enough tension in the harness, and that sometimes I was pushing her.  I don't think that a blind instructor would see that.  In those early days of training it's so important to get feedback, and I really believe, that at least in this situation, that feedback needs to come from an instructor who can make visual observations.  Now, I have had two blind mobility instructors, and they were awesome, and I had no issue with them.  But I th
ink there's a difference between cane travel and traveling with a dog.
>> >
>> >It's okay if you disagree with me, I had a friend while I was a student at CCB and we debated this issue a lot.  He never did convince me, by the way.  (Grin).  But it wasn't for lack of trying.  But that doesn't mean that I haven't learned a lot from other people who use dogs as guides.  I definitely have, but not the basics, and not stuff dealing with dogs and traffic.
>> >
>> >Well, I really need to be in bed now.  Tomorrow is Friday, yea! Maybe I'll get to more email then.  Again, good luck, Valerie!    Debby and Neena
>> >
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