[nagdu] An Introduction

The Pawpower Pack pawpower4me at gmail.com
Fri Aug 22 22:22:25 UTC 2014


Hi, 
Soleil had this curling because of distraction issue as well. My method was to immediately stop when she became distracted, to do a 180 turd without warning, and walk 5 feet or so back, then let her try again.  If she went by that spot with no sniffing or curling, I would click and treat.  The rule is, dog getting distracted equals me removing her from the situation and going away from it.  Work time is work time, This was the same as training time for her.  She was a great deal older than your dog but I give her plenty of chances to smell the roses during off time, and I will not allow it during work or training time, period.  

 Rox and the kitchen Bitches: 
Mill'E, Laveau, Soleil
Pawpower4me at gmail.com
Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 22, 2014, at 1:35 PM, Valerie Gibson via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> First, it was not my intention to give off the impression that dog trainers were meek.  Forgive me if I made you feel that way.  
> 
> My point is that goldens,labs, poodles, even dobermens, germain sheperds, etc all ranks 1 through 10 in trainability.  They'll obey a command 95% of the time.  (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Intelligence_of_Dogs)
> 
> I don't want to make it sound like it's not hard to train those dogs, but they pick up on things much faster, so in a sense, yeah, you don't need as much patience with those dogs, generally speaking, as you would with an akita.
> 
> Second, I know why he veers/curls.  He wants to sniff or go over to the direction he's curling toward.  My uestion was more how to control this and if it's something i should be particularly worried about given his age and the reason why, not why he's doing it.
> 
> 
> Thank you
>> On Aug 22, 2014, at 12:25 PM, Julie J. <julielj at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>> 
>> You know, of all the owner trainers I know there is one who has a Lab and that's Rox and all her previous owner trained guides were not labs.   There are Border Collies, GSD's, Poodles, Dobermans and all sorts of mixes.  Owner trainers don't seem to lean toward Labs as their preferred breed.   Also I have never met a meek owner trainer.  We all seem to be confident,  and self assured or fake it really well.  Yes, there are moments of doubt and feelings of utter failure, but you put on the big kid underpants and deal.
>> 
>> Traffic training refers to the process of teaching the dog to respect traffic and keep the handler out of harms way from traffic.  The exact process varies from owner trainer to owner trainer or program to program, I suppose.  The end result is all the same...a dog who will actively avoid letting you become road pizza.
>> 
>> Your curling or veering issue can be caused from a variety of things.  If your posture or alignment is out of whack, it can cause the dog to try to compensate.  If you are  putting pressure on the handle unevenly it can cause the dog to lean into the higher pressure point.  An ill fitting harness  or too short handle could cause this too.  Being distracted is a big one as is a bit of confusion or uncertainty in a particular area. Most dogs will curl in toward the handler if they are being extra cautious or visually checking for a tight clearance situation.   If it only lasts for a few steps and the dog gets back facing forward, I wouldn't worry about it. If it's happening frequently or for long stretches, then I'd start experimenting to see how to address it.
>> 
>> Julie
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message----- From: Valerie Gibson via nagdu
>> Sent: Friday, August 22, 2014 12:46 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] An Introduction
>> 
>> Hi guys,
>> 
>> Just another quick question, but I feel a bit out of the loop here on something.  What do you guys mean by "traffic training".  I mean, I think I understand what you mean,but I just want to make sure we're on the same page.
>> 
>> Also, what are your methods for teaching this.
>> 
>> In regards to philosophy.  I teach zion with posative reenforcement until he has mastered a command. Once I know he's mastered it, I move onto correctional methods.  For him, I use a prong collar.  With that being said, I'd like to add a couple comments.
>> 
>> First, I know how to use one, and I won't let anyone take the leash of my dog (even if they're a friend and trying to help), if they do not know how to use one.  I've seen them misused, and I can see why they get such a bad rep for it.
>> 
>> Second, the prong collar is not for every dog.  My dog is one of the spitz breeds, much like the husky.  If you've seen a husky, you know what I mean. For those who haven't, he's literally a fluf ball. I think a few enches of his hight is taken up by fur. He's got a course outer coat and a very dense wooly undercoat.  The prong collar is the only collar that I know will reach his skin.
>> 
>> Third, Because I know he's gotten a command down, I really hardly ever have to use it accept in cases of high destractions, and even then it's a rare thing. Usualy, we'll be walking forward, he'll se another dog, look at that dog and whine, but continue walking forward.
>> 
>> When Zion is especially distracted, I'll put the gentle leader on him, and honestly, he hates it more than the prong collar.  I think I've gotten more comments on animal cruelty with the gentle leader than the prong collar, and that's just because he makes such a fuss over it.
>> 
>> The gentle leader has it's place, but I don't consider it a training collar because there's no correction given.  Well, I think the only way it could be use in training is that it can teach a dog right and left pretty easily.
>> 
>> And now for my last question.
>> 
>> I'd be eager and excited to start a devision for blind dog trainers, since there's not one.  How would I get the ball rolling on this?  I envision changing the world in regards to dog training by this.  I imagine a devision like this to be a place where we could talk about training philosophies as wel as nonvisual ways to train a dog, a way where we could reach out to blind pet owners and let our trained dogs speak for themselves in regards to our training, a place and way to reach out to sighted trainers who'd be willing to give us a shot and offer some pointers for what we might need, a way to train dogs for other blind people, etc.
>> Quick side note, I usually don't like training dogs for other people.  With the akita, it's ill advised because they form such strong and long lasting attachments with the handler, it's better to owner train them in any work they may do.
>> 
>> As  stated before, akitas were bred to think and do their job without step by step instruction from the handler because they were bred for hunting. With the retrievers like the lab and golden, the owner gave a command, which was usually to retrieve, and the dog carried it out.  This makes them, what we'd call, eager to please.
>> 
>> If I do train a dog for someone else, especially if it were a guide dog, I'd prefer to have the dog live with it's owner handler, and that person would take on the responsibilities of taking care of it.  This provides the owner handler with more time to bond with the dog.
>> 
>> There have been times when I've gotten frustrated and had to take a deep breath when it comes to Zion.  Having to take him out every 3 hours, dealign with horrible bout of clostridium, dealing with health issues that didn't affect his training but health issues nonetheless, cleaning up after him when he decides to throw a completely full bowl of water across my livingroom, etc.  But I wouldn't trade those moments for anything.  They will be memories I will look back on and cherish.  I'm sure puppy raisers can relate to this, and I think blind people who want a guide dog trained by a blind person should have these memories.
>> 
>> Also, I can see a problem where you'd have a trainer taking a dog in, training it, and because the trainer has more of a hard temperment the dog responds.  If the new owner handler has a softer temperment the dog may think, "this guy's no leader,he's a pushover. I'll obey this person while my real leader's around, but once they leave, I shall walk all over this new guy who thinks he can tell me what to do".  I'm probably still thinking of the akita breed, but Zion refuses to listen to anyone else when they give him a command. Acording to sighted people, he looks at them like, "and who are you to tell me what to do?" Then he'll look at me.  Possibly with a dog that's eager to please, you won't have this problem.
>> 
>> But that's just my perspective.  It does not mean that it's wrong or right or better.  If it's worked for you to take a dog on and train it for a blind person, more power to you. :)
>> 
>> Please let me know how to get the ball rolling on a division for blind dog trainers, and I'll jump on that.
>> 
>> ThanksOn Aug 22, 2014, at 9:08 AM, Danielle Sykora via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi Valerie and all,
>>> 
>>> I am also very interested in dog training and I think it would be
>>> beneficial to many people to form a dog training division. I plan on
>>> owner training a dog in the future because I don't agree with forceful
>>> methods of training among other things common to most programs.
>>> 
>>> My dog does the same thing where he will move forward but angle either
>>> to the left or right,  usually when he is distracted by something. In
>>> this situation, I tell him "straight" and praise him when he looks
>>> straight ahead.
>>> 
>>> I have never found it difficult to read a dog's body language, as long
>>> as they are on leash or close enough for me to touch them. I can
>>> detect aggression in a dog before any vocalization, freezing, staring,
>>> tail position etc.
>>> I hope all goes well with Zion's training.
>>> Danielle and Thai
>>> 
>>>> On 8/22/14, Dan Weiner via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>> The only thig I'mimagining you would definitely need help with is traffic
>>>> checking since you, after all don't drive a car--smile.
>>>> 
>>>> Dan
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Ray via
>>>> nagdu
>>>> Sent: Friday, August 22, 2014 8:20 AM
>>>> To: Julie J.; NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>> Users
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] An Introduction
>>>> 
>>>> I have never trained a dog to guide and never will. I believe I can imagine
>>>> that you wouldn't need a sighted trainer to help you. There could be a few
>>>> things that someone who is sighted and whom you also trusted could help
>>>> with. Sometimes they could see that your dog is posturing, for instance,
>>>> about another dog, especially if it hasn't gotten to the stage where it is
>>>> being vocal about it. However, it wouldn't be long before you were keenly
>>>> aware of that fact without that help, so I can see being able to do this
>>>> with very little sighted help.
>>>> 
>>>> Cindy
>>>> 
>>>>> On Aug 22, 2014, at 5:40 AM, Julie J. via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Debby,
>>>>> 
>>>>> I just received Jetta, who was trained and placed with me by a blind
>>>> trainer.  I am an experienced guide dog handler and I'm certain that makes
>>>> a
>>>> difference here.  Meghan followed behind Jetta and I either with her cane
>>>> or
>>>> with a sighted guide.  She had no difficulty keeping up when she was using
>>>> her cane.  If I noticed Jetta doing something, like curling in toward me, I
>>>> would mention it to Meghan so she could offer suggestions.   We skipped the
>>>> part where the trainer clips a leash to the dog and walks alongside in the
>>>> very beginning.  I've never liked that anyway.   I had no problems at all
>>>> with our training arrangement.  Meghan knows Jetta very well because she
>>>> has
>>>> worked her frequently and nonvisually.  She could give me very specific
>>>> information about how Jetta navigates her environment and what to expect.
>>>> I
>>>> believe that this was Meghan's first time independently placing a guide
>>>> with
>>>> a blind person.  It was a new  experience for both of us.   Previously I
>>>> had
>>>> owner trained my guides.
>>>>> 
>>>>> If a person was entirely new to guide dogs and dogs in general I  think
>>>> there would have had to be a lot more training with the person.   The blind
>>>> trainer would have to ask lots of questions and check for proper
>>>> positioning
>>>> when the team was standing still.  I think the blind trainer could use a
>>>> sighted reader/describer to assess some of the visual elements.
>>>>> 
>>>>> As far as traffic training goes...it can be done by a blind person, the
>>>> dog portion anyway.  *smile*  You just get a driver and explain very
>>>> thoroughly what you need them to do.  If you can set up ongoing
>>>> communication during the traffic training by cell phone head sets or walkie
>>>> talkies or something, that makes it much easier.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Julie
>>>>> 
>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: debby phillips via nagdu
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2014 11:10 PM
>>>>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] An Introduction
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hi Valerie, your post was very interesting, and I can see that you
>>>>> have put a lot of time and thought in to the process.  I do not
>>>>> believe that every blind person should and could train their own dog,
>>>>> but I have seen one that was awesome.  The man who trained him did a
>>>>> great job.  I believe though that his next dog was from one of the
>>>>> schools.  I think I do have a couple of concerns.  One is this:
>>>>> traffic is becoming more and more dangerous.  It doesn't mean that we
>>>>> should all stay home and never go out.  Lol.  But it does mean that
>>>>> we, and our dogs need to be extra aware.  Gone are the days of simply
>>>>> listening for a surge of parallel traffic and heading across the
>>>>> street.  There are turning lanes, right on red, and cars are just
>>>>> plain quieter, and I'm not even talking about the hybrids.  Seeing Eye
>>>>> does a lot of traffic training with our dogs, some of it using the
>>>>> general public and some of it that they set up.  Keeping a certain
>>>>> distance from traffic is important.  So if you can find a trainer who
>>>>> is willing to work with you on that part, I recommend that.  I hope
>>>>> that ow am not sounding like I am against what you are doing, I'm not.
>>>>> I admire you for your effort, and wish you success.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I may offend some folks when I say the following: I do not believe
>>>>> that a blind person can train me with a dog.  Dogs and people move
>>>>> faster than people who travel with canes, (though I know some very
>>>>> fast walkers who use canes.  There are certain parts of instruction
>>>>> that a blind person could do, like some of the dog care, things like
>>>>> that.  But instructors see how the dog and person are walking
>>>>> together, they can often figure out whether a different kind of
>>>>> harness is needed, for instance.
>>>>> Right away, my instructor saw that I was not giving Neena enough
>>>>> tension in the harness, and that sometimes I was pushing her.  I don't
>>>>> think that a blind instructor would see that.  In those early days of
>>>>> training it's so important to get feedback, and I really believe, that
>>>>> at least in this situation, that feedback needs to come from an
>>>>> instructor who can make visual observations.  Now, I have had two
>>>>> blind mobility instructors, and they were awesome, and I had no issue
>>>>> with them.  But I think there's a difference between cane travel and
>>>>> traveling with a dog.
>>>>> 
>>>>> It's okay if you disagree with me, I had a friend while I was a
>>>>> student at CCB and we debated this issue a lot.  He never did convince
>>>>> me, by the way.  (Grin).  But it wasn't for lack of trying.  But that
>>>>> doesn't mean that I haven't learned a lot from other people who use
>>>>> dogs as guides.  I definitely have, but not the basics, and not stuff
>>>>> dealing with dogs and traffic.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Well, I really need to be in bed now.  Tomorrow is Friday, yea!
>>>>> Maybe I'll get to more email then.  Again, good luck, Valerie!
>>>>> Debby and Neena
>>>>> 
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