[nagdu] An Introduction
Sean Robertson
sprobertson0871 at gmail.com
Fri Aug 22 21:53:48 UTC 2014
O boy new dogs do test big time. Been there. But I don't know how to train.
But I've seen pet dogs be trained.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Julie J. via nagdu" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
To: "Valerie Gibson" <valandkayla at gmail.com>; "NAGDU Mailing List,the
National Association of Guide Dog Users" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, August 22, 2014 4:10 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] An Introduction
> LOL You didn't make me feel meek! I'm just trying to explain to you that
> you don't have to explain your decisions. Seriously owner trainers are
> really okay with existing outside of the box, so to speak.
>
> And would you please explain to my Doberman about being obedient? She
> didn't get that memo. I've only had her since Sunday evening and she is
> most definitely testing all the boundaries. I'm sure once she figures out
> that I'm really for serious about the rules, she'll be more obedient, but
> today well...
>
> I do get what you are saying about the trainability of the breeds you
> listed, but it's a double edged sword. Yes, the Doberman can learn
> something with only a handful of repetitions, sometimes just once is
> enough. that's cool, until you goof as a trainer. If your dog needs 50
> repetitions to learn something and you mess up on number 35, it is going
> to average out and the dog will get what you want. If your dog only needs
> 5 repetitions and you goof, the odds just went way up that you've just
> trained the wrong thing. Dogs that need more repetitions do need more
> patience to train, but dogs with a high trainability need a high level of
> consistency. So I guess it comes down to what the strengths of the
> trainer are or what the trainer is willing to do to work with the dog.
>
> I don't know your training approach, so I'll offer a couple of solutions
> that immediately come to mind. Feel free to use what works and ignore the
> rest.
>
> You can use the leash in your right hand to apply gentle pressure forward.
> This requires a pretty flexible person with a good sense of balance
> because it is physically difficult to have one hand on the handle with
> pressure back, one arm out forward keeping the dogs head forward and to
> keep walking. It also leaves you with only the ability to offer verbal
> praise. It does work though. This is what worked best with Belle, my
> guide before Monty.
>
> With Monty I used an incompatible behavior. He was most distracted by
> other dogs. So at first if he saw another dog, I'd turn and go directly
> back the way I just came from. This breaks his line of sight of the dog
> and gets his attention back on me. Once he was behaving, I'd turn back
> toward the dog. Each time I'd work him just a tiny bit closer to the
> other dog. In one session we might only make it a few feet closer. It is
> easiest if there are dogs behind fences to work with because they will
> stay the same distance away and won't break away from the owner
> accidentally.
>
> If the dog was on a leash with its owner I might move up into a driveway
> or yard and get Monty to sit or nose target my hand. anything that he
> could be successful with while the other dog passed by. I'd reward for
> him doing anything, no matter how small, that wasn't to do with the other
> dog.
>
> If your dog is not distracted by other dogs the above method will still
> work, you just have to figure out what he's distracted by and work back
> and forth to and from it until he can successfully ignore it. So if it's
> the smells from a bakery, you could walk close enough until he just starts
> to show the first signs of being distracted, then you back track and
> praise/give reward for his attention back on you. Then back toward the
> bakery praising and rewarding for good posture and attention until you
> anticipate he will become distracted, then move away. You want to plan
> for as much success as possible.
>
> Monty was very extremely dog distracted. When I was first working with
> him he would literally jump up and down and make the most pitiful whining
> noises because he wanted to play with the other dogs. There were times I
> couldn't get far enough away from the other dog in time and I'd just have
> to hold on to the leash and wait until the other dog was gone. It took
> months and months to get him past this problem.
>
> Honestly your dog sounds like a normal adolescent dog. they all test the
> boundaries. You just have to keep at it and work on the underlying issue.
> It might be helpful to back off on the harness part of training until he
> is less distracted. It will help him to build a really solid foundation
> skill without splitting your concentration and effort between two
> different things, distractions and harness work. Or you could practice
> harness work in a lower distraction area where he won't sniff or look and
> work on his distractions without the harness in places where he struggles.
>
> Oh, I just thought of another approach. Sometimes just stopping, having
> the dog sit, and letting him look at whatever he is interested in can be
> enough to satisfy his curiosity. then you can have him stand and be on
> your way again, distraction over. I think it really depends on the
> particular dog and how they make sense of the world.
>
> Best of luck,
> Julie
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Valerie Gibson via nagdu
> Sent: Friday, August 22, 2014 1:35 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] An Introduction
>
> First, it was not my intention to give off the impression that dog
> trainers were meek. Forgive me if I made you feel that way.
>
> My point is that goldens,labs, poodles, even dobermens, germain sheperds,
> etc all ranks 1 through 10 in trainability. They'll obey a command 95% of
> the time. (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Intelligence_of_Dogs)
>
> I don't want to make it sound like it's not hard to train those dogs, but
> they pick up on things much faster, so in a sense, yeah, you don't need as
> much patience with those dogs, generally speaking, as you would with an
> akita.
>
> Second, I know why he veers/curls. He wants to sniff or go over to the
> direction he's curling toward. My uestion was more how to control this
> and if it's something i should be particularly worried about given his age
> and the reason why, not why he's doing it.
>
>
> Thank you
> On Aug 22, 2014, at 12:25 PM, Julie J. <julielj at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>
>> You know, of all the owner trainers I know there is one who has a Lab and
>> that's Rox and all her previous owner trained guides were not labs. There
>> are Border Collies, GSD's, Poodles, Dobermans and all sorts of mixes.
>> Owner trainers don't seem to lean toward Labs as their preferred breed.
>> Also I have never met a meek owner trainer. We all seem to be confident,
>> and self assured or fake it really well. Yes, there are moments of doubt
>> and feelings of utter failure, but you put on the big kid underpants and
>> deal.
>>
>> Traffic training refers to the process of teaching the dog to respect
>> traffic and keep the handler out of harms way from traffic. The exact
>> process varies from owner trainer to owner trainer or program to program,
>> I suppose. The end result is all the same...a dog who will actively
>> avoid letting you become road pizza.
>>
>> Your curling or veering issue can be caused from a variety of things. If
>> your posture or alignment is out of whack, it can cause the dog to try to
>> compensate. If you are putting pressure on the handle unevenly it can
>> cause the dog to lean into the higher pressure point. An ill fitting
>> harness or too short handle could cause this too. Being distracted is a
>> big one as is a bit of confusion or uncertainty in a particular area.
>> Most dogs will curl in toward the handler if they are being extra
>> cautious or visually checking for a tight clearance situation. If it
>> only lasts for a few steps and the dog gets back facing forward, I
>> wouldn't worry about it. If it's happening frequently or for long
>> stretches, then I'd start experimenting to see how to address it.
>>
>> Julie
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message----- From: Valerie Gibson via nagdu
>> Sent: Friday, August 22, 2014 12:46 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] An Introduction
>>
>> Hi guys,
>>
>> Just another quick question, but I feel a bit out of the loop here on
>> something. What do you guys mean by "traffic training". I mean, I think
>> I understand what you mean,but I just want to make sure we're on the same
>> page.
>>
>> Also, what are your methods for teaching this.
>>
>> In regards to philosophy. I teach zion with posative reenforcement until
>> he has mastered a command. Once I know he's mastered it, I move onto
>> correctional methods. For him, I use a prong collar. With that being
>> said, I'd like to add a couple comments.
>>
>> First, I know how to use one, and I won't let anyone take the leash of my
>> dog (even if they're a friend and trying to help), if they do not know
>> how to use one. I've seen them misused, and I can see why they get such
>> a bad rep for it.
>>
>> Second, the prong collar is not for every dog. My dog is one of the
>> spitz breeds, much like the husky. If you've seen a husky, you know what
>> I mean. For those who haven't, he's literally a fluf ball. I think a few
>> enches of his hight is taken up by fur. He's got a course outer coat and
>> a very dense wooly undercoat. The prong collar is the only collar that I
>> know will reach his skin.
>>
>> Third, Because I know he's gotten a command down, I really hardly ever
>> have to use it accept in cases of high destractions, and even then it's a
>> rare thing. Usualy, we'll be walking forward, he'll se another dog, look
>> at that dog and whine, but continue walking forward.
>>
>> When Zion is especially distracted, I'll put the gentle leader on him,
>> and honestly, he hates it more than the prong collar. I think I've
>> gotten more comments on animal cruelty with the gentle leader than the
>> prong collar, and that's just because he makes such a fuss over it.
>>
>> The gentle leader has it's place, but I don't consider it a training
>> collar because there's no correction given. Well, I think the only way
>> it could be use in training is that it can teach a dog right and left
>> pretty easily.
>>
>> And now for my last question.
>>
>> I'd be eager and excited to start a devision for blind dog trainers,
>> since there's not one. How would I get the ball rolling on this? I
>> envision changing the world in regards to dog training by this. I
>> imagine a devision like this to be a place where we could talk about
>> training philosophies as wel as nonvisual ways to train a dog, a way
>> where we could reach out to blind pet owners and let our trained dogs
>> speak for themselves in regards to our training, a place and way to reach
>> out to sighted trainers who'd be willing to give us a shot and offer some
>> pointers for what we might need, a way to train dogs for other blind
>> people, etc.
>> Quick side note, I usually don't like training dogs for other people.
>> With the akita, it's ill advised because they form such strong and long
>> lasting attachments with the handler, it's better to owner train them in
>> any work they may do.
>>
>> As stated before, akitas were bred to think and do their job without
>> step by step instruction from the handler because they were bred for
>> hunting. With the retrievers like the lab and golden, the owner gave a
>> command, which was usually to retrieve, and the dog carried it out. This
>> makes them, what we'd call, eager to please.
>>
>> If I do train a dog for someone else, especially if it were a guide dog,
>> I'd prefer to have the dog live with it's owner handler, and that person
>> would take on the responsibilities of taking care of it. This provides
>> the owner handler with more time to bond with the dog.
>>
>> There have been times when I've gotten frustrated and had to take a deep
>> breath when it comes to Zion. Having to take him out every 3 hours,
>> dealign with horrible bout of clostridium, dealing with health issues
>> that didn't affect his training but health issues nonetheless, cleaning
>> up after him when he decides to throw a completely full bowl of water
>> across my livingroom, etc. But I wouldn't trade those moments for
>> anything. They will be memories I will look back on and cherish. I'm
>> sure puppy raisers can relate to this, and I think blind people who want
>> a guide dog trained by a blind person should have these memories.
>>
>> Also, I can see a problem where you'd have a trainer taking a dog in,
>> training it, and because the trainer has more of a hard temperment the
>> dog responds. If the new owner handler has a softer temperment the dog
>> may think, "this guy's no leader,he's a pushover. I'll obey this person
>> while my real leader's around, but once they leave, I shall walk all over
>> this new guy who thinks he can tell me what to do". I'm probably still
>> thinking of the akita breed, but Zion refuses to listen to anyone else
>> when they give him a command. Acording to sighted people, he looks at
>> them like, "and who are you to tell me what to do?" Then he'll look at
>> me. Possibly with a dog that's eager to please, you won't have this
>> problem.
>>
>> But that's just my perspective. It does not mean that it's wrong or
>> right or better. If it's worked for you to take a dog on and train it
>> for a blind person, more power to you. :)
>>
>> Please let me know how to get the ball rolling on a division for blind
>> dog trainers, and I'll jump on that.
>>
>> ThanksOn Aug 22, 2014, at 9:08 AM, Danielle Sykora via nagdu
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Valerie and all,
>>>
>>> I am also very interested in dog training and I think it would be
>>> beneficial to many people to form a dog training division. I plan on
>>> owner training a dog in the future because I don't agree with forceful
>>> methods of training among other things common to most programs.
>>>
>>> My dog does the same thing where he will move forward but angle either
>>> to the left or right, usually when he is distracted by something. In
>>> this situation, I tell him "straight" and praise him when he looks
>>> straight ahead.
>>>
>>> I have never found it difficult to read a dog's body language, as long
>>> as they are on leash or close enough for me to touch them. I can
>>> detect aggression in a dog before any vocalization, freezing, staring,
>>> tail position etc.
>>> I hope all goes well with Zion's training.
>>> Danielle and Thai
>>>
>>> On 8/22/14, Dan Weiner via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>> The only thig I'mimagining you would definitely need help with is
>>>> traffic
>>>> checking since you, after all don't drive a car--smile.
>>>>
>>>> Dan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Ray
>>>> via
>>>> nagdu
>>>> Sent: Friday, August 22, 2014 8:20 AM
>>>> To: Julie J.; NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>> Users
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] An Introduction
>>>>
>>>> I have never trained a dog to guide and never will. I believe I can
>>>> imagine
>>>> that you wouldn't need a sighted trainer to help you. There could be a
>>>> few
>>>> things that someone who is sighted and whom you also trusted could help
>>>> with. Sometimes they could see that your dog is posturing, for
>>>> instance,
>>>> about another dog, especially if it hasn't gotten to the stage where it
>>>> is
>>>> being vocal about it. However, it wouldn't be long before you were
>>>> keenly
>>>> aware of that fact without that help, so I can see being able to do
>>>> this
>>>> with very little sighted help.
>>>>
>>>> Cindy
>>>>
>>>> On Aug 22, 2014, at 5:40 AM, Julie J. via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Debby,
>>>>>
>>>>> I just received Jetta, who was trained and placed with me by a blind
>>>> trainer. I am an experienced guide dog handler and I'm certain that
>>>> makes
>>>> a
>>>> difference here. Meghan followed behind Jetta and I either with her
>>>> cane
>>>> or
>>>> with a sighted guide. She had no difficulty keeping up when she was
>>>> using
>>>> her cane. If I noticed Jetta doing something, like curling in toward
>>>> me, I
>>>> would mention it to Meghan so she could offer suggestions. We skipped
>>>> the
>>>> part where the trainer clips a leash to the dog and walks alongside in
>>>> the
>>>> very beginning. I've never liked that anyway. I had no problems at
>>>> all
>>>> with our training arrangement. Meghan knows Jetta very well because
>>>> she
>>>> has
>>>> worked her frequently and nonvisually. She could give me very specific
>>>> information about how Jetta navigates her environment and what to
>>>> expect.
>>>> I
>>>> believe that this was Meghan's first time independently placing a guide
>>>> with
>>>> a blind person. It was a new experience for both of us. Previously
>>>> I
>>>> had
>>>> owner trained my guides.
>>>>>
>>>>> If a person was entirely new to guide dogs and dogs in general I
>>>>> think
>>>> there would have had to be a lot more training with the person. The
>>>> blind
>>>> trainer would have to ask lots of questions and check for proper
>>>> positioning
>>>> when the team was standing still. I think the blind trainer could use
>>>> a
>>>> sighted reader/describer to assess some of the visual elements.
>>>>>
>>>>> As far as traffic training goes...it can be done by a blind person,
>>>>> the
>>>> dog portion anyway. *smile* You just get a driver and explain very
>>>> thoroughly what you need them to do. If you can set up ongoing
>>>> communication during the traffic training by cell phone head sets or
>>>> walkie
>>>> talkies or something, that makes it much easier.
>>>>>
>>>>> Julie
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: debby phillips via nagdu
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2014 11:10 PM
>>>>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] An Introduction
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Valerie, your post was very interesting, and I can see that you
>>>>> have put a lot of time and thought in to the process. I do not
>>>>> believe that every blind person should and could train their own dog,
>>>>> but I have seen one that was awesome. The man who trained him did a
>>>>> great job. I believe though that his next dog was from one of the
>>>>> schools. I think I do have a couple of concerns. One is this:
>>>>> traffic is becoming more and more dangerous. It doesn't mean that we
>>>>> should all stay home and never go out. Lol. But it does mean that
>>>>> we, and our dogs need to be extra aware. Gone are the days of simply
>>>>> listening for a surge of parallel traffic and heading across the
>>>>> street. There are turning lanes, right on red, and cars are just
>>>>> plain quieter, and I'm not even talking about the hybrids. Seeing Eye
>>>>> does a lot of traffic training with our dogs, some of it using the
>>>>> general public and some of it that they set up. Keeping a certain
>>>>> distance from traffic is important. So if you can find a trainer who
>>>>> is willing to work with you on that part, I recommend that. I hope
>>>>> that ow am not sounding like I am against what you are doing, I'm not.
>>>>> I admire you for your effort, and wish you success.
>>>>>
>>>>> I may offend some folks when I say the following: I do not believe
>>>>> that a blind person can train me with a dog. Dogs and people move
>>>>> faster than people who travel with canes, (though I know some very
>>>>> fast walkers who use canes. There are certain parts of instruction
>>>>> that a blind person could do, like some of the dog care, things like
>>>>> that. But instructors see how the dog and person are walking
>>>>> together, they can often figure out whether a different kind of
>>>>> harness is needed, for instance.
>>>>> Right away, my instructor saw that I was not giving Neena enough
>>>>> tension in the harness, and that sometimes I was pushing her. I don't
>>>>> think that a blind instructor would see that. In those early days of
>>>>> training it's so important to get feedback, and I really believe, that
>>>>> at least in this situation, that feedback needs to come from an
>>>>> instructor who can make visual observations. Now, I have had two
>>>>> blind mobility instructors, and they were awesome, and I had no issue
>>>>> with them. But I think there's a difference between cane travel and
>>>>> traveling with a dog.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's okay if you disagree with me, I had a friend while I was a
>>>>> student at CCB and we debated this issue a lot. He never did convince
>>>>> me, by the way. (Grin). But it wasn't for lack of trying. But that
>>>>> doesn't mean that I haven't learned a lot from other people who use
>>>>> dogs as guides. I definitely have, but not the basics, and not stuff
>>>>> dealing with dogs and traffic.
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, I really need to be in bed now. Tomorrow is Friday, yea!
>>>>> Maybe I'll get to more email then. Again, good luck, Valerie!
>>>>> Debby and Neena
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
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