[nagdu] An Introduction
Larry D Keeler
lkeeler at comcast.net
Sat Aug 23 02:36:42 UTC 2014
Thanks and of course I'd research the thing! Every tool does its job
differently and sometimes the tool you're looking at might not be the most
effective or maybe do more than you want it to.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Valerie Gibson via nagdu" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, August 22, 2014 9:07 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] An Introduction
> Larry,
>
> in regards to the collar. Please please find a trainer who knows how to
> use them and can show you before using one, if you don't know how to use
> one already.
>
> The best way I can describe using a prong collar is:
>
> Position it behind the dog's ears. Make sure the live ring is center on
> the dog's neck at the top. When correcting, start with a light but fast
> pul straight upward on the collar. You can in crease the pull if your
> dog does not respond favorably, but the pull should be a very quick jerk
> release.
>
> When fitting it, it must fit snug (like you'd fit a gentle leader). It is
> a collar to be snapped on and off (and sometimes the fasening of the
> collar can be a pain, especially if you have small hands, but any pet shop
> employee can show you how to do that).
>
> What not to do with a prong collar:
>
> Never slip it over the dog's neck. Unless you're very careful, you'd run
> the risk of poking the dog in the eye with one of the prongs, and it's
> more comfortable for the dog if you fasen it around the neck.
>
> Never correct with an upwards sideways motion. You can correct me if I'm
> wrong, but I think this is how choke chain corrections work for some
> corrections. Having never used one, that's just what i've heard. The
> prong collar was not meant to be used that way though. If you study the
> mechanics of it, you'll see why. The chain that the live ring is
> connected to looks sort of like the martaingale chain.
>
> Most importantly, never ever allow your dog the freedom on the leash where
> you don't have enough leash to give the correction. I know this might
> seem obvious, but I've seen trainers, where their dog is pulling at the
> leash, and the trainer may have some leash to work with, but the prongs
> are digging into the dog's neck as the dog is pullying. Again the only
> time the prongs should be touching the dog's neck is during a correction
> that lasts half a second.
>
> Also, know your dog. Sometimes a training method like this might increase
> the drive of your dog. For example, if your dog gets excited around
> strange dogs and you correct with this collar, it might increase the
> excitement, especially if you are feeling intensely emotional. Even if
> you're not, some dogs' drives just increase with this sort of correction.
> I'd imagien your dog's not aggressive, but in some dogs, this could make
> them aggressive and so this method won't work for them. So again, know
> your dog. I'm saying that for your safety as well as the dog's.
>
> I don't want to give off the impression that you won't know what your'e
> doing, but as I've said, I get very anxious when people are just like, "oh
> i'll try this collar" and don't understand how it works in relation to
> your dog. Not all dogs need a strong correction with it.
>
> I just did a small bit of research on your dog's breed. It doesn't sound
> like you've got a hard temperment dog, so you probably won't need strong
> corrections as with an akita, but I believe this collar will due the job
> since, yes, your breed does have the same coat that an akita has. Your dog
> is apparently very eager to please it's owner, which again suggestion a
> softer tempered dog, so be careful with the corections. Too strong of a
> correction with a soft tempered dog will take the dog down in drive so
> much that it might not want to work. I Never put a dog in that position
> unless it's made an active aggressive threat to me, but i've never done it
> with the collar.
>
> Sometimes, I find that my energy is enough to do what I want, and you
> might try that before the prong collar.
>
> For example, if I'm walking with Zion, I'll adopt the mind set of "I'm
> high and mighty, and you are not, and I will keep you safe." Zion is
> almost my weight, but I've never given him a reason or chance to overpower
> me and call my bluff. This is partially why training an akita so early is
> so important. So if I tell him to sit when I have this mind set, most of
> the time, he does it. My voice changes when i isue the command. it's
> slightly lower, sharper without any change in volume, and just no
> nonsense. It's as if I'm saying, "you need to sit, and there's no room
> for debate." If he wishes to debate, and I know he knows what he's
> supposed to do, he'll use th collar. the collar is supposed to mimmick a
> nip on the neck by a dog.
>
> When we're not on leash or harness, I can leave a plate of food on the
> table, adopt a "touch my food, and you will be food" mentality, and tell
> him to "leave it". Dogs understand the value of food, even if they do not
> work for it, so if I ned to do that, he leaves it. Again, I've conditioned
> him to believe that my word is law.
>
> The tricky part with this method that some people have is, if you adopt a
> "I am the big bad leader and you are merely a subordenant" mentality, and
> you issue your command, if your dog pulls off the command, you must
> immediately turn that off and go to a "your are such a good dog" mentality
> with praise, affection, whatever your dog works for. It kind of tells
> your dog that, while I may be big bad leader, I'm also fair and loving and
> am not a bully.
> Anyway, some of that may be common sense to you, but that's just one of my
> methods that I use because it focuses more on pack behavior, which will
> affect your training. If your dog sees you as a pack leader at home,
> you'll get used to adopting this mentality outside of the home, and it
> will show in your training.
>
>
> On Aug 22, 2014, at 4:35 PM, Larry D Keeler <lkeeler at comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> Well, I might consider using that collar with my pup. Being an American
>> Eskimo, his fur is super fluffy! Traffic checks are unscheduled drive
>> by's Some schools will purposely drive by and see how you and your dog
>> react.
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Valerie Gibson via nagdu"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Friday, August 22, 2014 1:46 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] An Introduction
>>
>>
>>> Hi guys,
>>>
>>> Just another quick question, but I feel a bit out of the loop here on
>>> something. What do you guys mean by "traffic training". I mean, I
>>> think I understand what you mean,but I just want to make sure we're on
>>> the same page.
>>>
>>> Also, what are your methods for teaching this.
>>>
>>> In regards to philosophy. I teach zion with posative reenforcement
>>> until he has mastered a command. Once I know he's mastered it, I move
>>> onto correctional methods. For him, I use a prong collar. With that
>>> being said, I'd like to add a couple comments.
>>>
>>> First, I know how to use one, and I won't let anyone take the leash of
>>> my dog (even if they're a friend and trying to help), if they do not
>>> know how to use one. I've seen them misused, and I can see why they get
>>> such a bad rep for it.
>>>
>>> Second, the prong collar is not for every dog. My dog is one of the
>>> spitz breeds, much like the husky. If you've seen a husky, you know
>>> what I mean. For those who haven't, he's literally a fluf ball. I think
>>> a few enches of his hight is taken up by fur. He's got a course outer
>>> coat and a very dense wooly undercoat. The prong collar is the only
>>> collar that I know will reach his skin.
>>>
>>> Third, Because I know he's gotten a command down, I really hardly ever
>>> have to use it accept in cases of high destractions, and even then it's
>>> a rare thing. Usualy, we'll be walking forward, he'll se another dog,
>>> look at that dog and whine, but continue walking forward.
>>>
>>> When Zion is especially distracted, I'll put the gentle leader on him,
>>> and honestly, he hates it more than the prong collar. I think I've
>>> gotten more comments on animal cruelty with the gentle leader than the
>>> prong collar, and that's just because he makes such a fuss over it.
>>>
>>> The gentle leader has it's place, but I don't consider it a training
>>> collar because there's no correction given. Well, I think the only way
>>> it could be use in training is that it can teach a dog right and left
>>> pretty easily.
>>>
>>> And now for my last question.
>>>
>>> I'd be eager and excited to start a devision for blind dog trainers,
>>> since there's not one. How would I get the ball rolling on this? I
>>> envision changing the world in regards to dog training by this. I
>>> imagine a devision like this to be a place where we could talk about
>>> training philosophies as wel as nonvisual ways to train a dog, a way
>>> where we could reach out to blind pet owners and let our trained dogs
>>> speak for themselves in regards to our training, a place and way to
>>> reach out to sighted trainers who'd be willing to give us a shot and
>>> offer some pointers for what we might need, a way to train dogs for
>>> other blind people, etc.
>>> Quick side note, I usually don't like training dogs for other people.
>>> With the akita, it's ill advised because they form such strong and long
>>> lasting attachments with the handler, it's better to owner train them in
>>> any work they may do.
>>>
>>> As stated before, akitas were bred to think and do their job without
>>> step by step instruction from the handler because they were bred for
>>> hunting. With the retrievers like the lab and golden, the owner gave a
>>> command, which was usually to retrieve, and the dog carried it out.
>>> This makes them, what we'd call, eager to please.
>>>
>>> If I do train a dog for someone else, especially if it were a guide dog,
>>> I'd prefer to have the dog live with it's owner handler, and that person
>>> would take on the responsibilities of taking care of it. This provides
>>> the owner handler with more time to bond with the dog.
>>>
>>> There have been times when I've gotten frustrated and had to take a deep
>>> breath when it comes to Zion. Having to take him out every 3 hours,
>>> dealign with horrible bout of clostridium, dealing with health issues
>>> that didn't affect his training but health issues nonetheless, cleaning
>>> up after him when he decides to throw a completely full bowl of water
>>> across my livingroom, etc. But I wouldn't trade those moments for
>>> anything. They will be memories I will look back on and cherish. I'm
>>> sure puppy raisers can relate to this, and I think blind people who want
>>> a guide dog trained by a blind person should have these memories.
>>>
>>> Also, I can see a problem where you'd have a trainer taking a dog in,
>>> training it, and because the trainer has more of a hard temperment the
>>> dog responds. If the new owner handler has a softer temperment the dog
>>> may think, "this guy's no leader,he's a pushover. I'll obey this person
>>> while my real leader's around, but once they leave, I shall walk all
>>> over this new guy who thinks he can tell me what to do". I'm probably
>>> still thinking of the akita breed, but Zion refuses to listen to anyone
>>> else when they give him a command. Acording to sighted people, he looks
>>> at them like, "and who are you to tell me what to do?" Then he'll look
>>> at me. Possibly with a dog that's eager to please, you won't have this
>>> problem.
>>>
>>> But that's just my perspective. It does not mean that it's wrong or
>>> right or better. If it's worked for you to take a dog on and train it
>>> for a blind person, more power to you. :)
>>>
>>> Please let me know how to get the ball rolling on a division for blind
>>> dog trainers, and I'll jump on that.
>>>
>>> ThanksOn Aug 22, 2014, at 9:08 AM, Danielle Sykora via nagdu
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Valerie and all,
>>>>
>>>> I am also very interested in dog training and I think it would be
>>>> beneficial to many people to form a dog training division. I plan on
>>>> owner training a dog in the future because I don't agree with forceful
>>>> methods of training among other things common to most programs.
>>>>
>>>> My dog does the same thing where he will move forward but angle either
>>>> to the left or right, usually when he is distracted by something. In
>>>> this situation, I tell him "straight" and praise him when he looks
>>>> straight ahead.
>>>>
>>>> I have never found it difficult to read a dog's body language, as long
>>>> as they are on leash or close enough for me to touch them. I can
>>>> detect aggression in a dog before any vocalization, freezing, staring,
>>>> tail position etc.
>>>> I hope all goes well with Zion's training.
>>>> Danielle and Thai
>>>>
>>>> On 8/22/14, Dan Weiner via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>> The only thig I'mimagining you would definitely need help with is
>>>>> traffic
>>>>> checking since you, after all don't drive a car--smile.
>>>>>
>>>>> Dan
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Ray
>>>>> via
>>>>> nagdu
>>>>> Sent: Friday, August 22, 2014 8:20 AM
>>>>> To: Julie J.; NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>> Users
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] An Introduction
>>>>>
>>>>> I have never trained a dog to guide and never will. I believe I can
>>>>> imagine
>>>>> that you wouldn't need a sighted trainer to help you. There could be a
>>>>> few
>>>>> things that someone who is sighted and whom you also trusted could
>>>>> help
>>>>> with. Sometimes they could see that your dog is posturing, for
>>>>> instance,
>>>>> about another dog, especially if it hasn't gotten to the stage where
>>>>> it is
>>>>> being vocal about it. However, it wouldn't be long before you were
>>>>> keenly
>>>>> aware of that fact without that help, so I can see being able to do
>>>>> this
>>>>> with very little sighted help.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cindy
>>>>>
>>>>> On Aug 22, 2014, at 5:40 AM, Julie J. via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Debby,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I just received Jetta, who was trained and placed with me by a blind
>>>>> trainer. I am an experienced guide dog handler and I'm certain that
>>>>> makes
>>>>> a
>>>>> difference here. Meghan followed behind Jetta and I either with her
>>>>> cane
>>>>> or
>>>>> with a sighted guide. She had no difficulty keeping up when she was
>>>>> using
>>>>> her cane. If I noticed Jetta doing something, like curling in toward
>>>>> me, I
>>>>> would mention it to Meghan so she could offer suggestions. We
>>>>> skipped the
>>>>> part where the trainer clips a leash to the dog and walks alongside in
>>>>> the
>>>>> very beginning. I've never liked that anyway. I had no problems at
>>>>> all
>>>>> with our training arrangement. Meghan knows Jetta very well because
>>>>> she
>>>>> has
>>>>> worked her frequently and nonvisually. She could give me very
>>>>> specific
>>>>> information about how Jetta navigates her environment and what to
>>>>> expect.
>>>>> I
>>>>> believe that this was Meghan's first time independently placing a
>>>>> guide
>>>>> with
>>>>> a blind person. It was a new experience for both of us. Previously
>>>>> I
>>>>> had
>>>>> owner trained my guides.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If a person was entirely new to guide dogs and dogs in general I
>>>>>> think
>>>>> there would have had to be a lot more training with the person. The
>>>>> blind
>>>>> trainer would have to ask lots of questions and check for proper
>>>>> positioning
>>>>> when the team was standing still. I think the blind trainer could use
>>>>> a
>>>>> sighted reader/describer to assess some of the visual elements.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As far as traffic training goes...it can be done by a blind person,
>>>>>> the
>>>>> dog portion anyway. *smile* You just get a driver and explain very
>>>>> thoroughly what you need them to do. If you can set up ongoing
>>>>> communication during the traffic training by cell phone head sets or
>>>>> walkie
>>>>> talkies or something, that makes it much easier.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Julie
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: debby phillips via nagdu
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2014 11:10 PM
>>>>>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] An Introduction
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Valerie, your post was very interesting, and I can see that you
>>>>>> have put a lot of time and thought in to the process. I do not
>>>>>> believe that every blind person should and could train their own dog,
>>>>>> but I have seen one that was awesome. The man who trained him did a
>>>>>> great job. I believe though that his next dog was from one of the
>>>>>> schools. I think I do have a couple of concerns. One is this:
>>>>>> traffic is becoming more and more dangerous. It doesn't mean that we
>>>>>> should all stay home and never go out. Lol. But it does mean that
>>>>>> we, and our dogs need to be extra aware. Gone are the days of simply
>>>>>> listening for a surge of parallel traffic and heading across the
>>>>>> street. There are turning lanes, right on red, and cars are just
>>>>>> plain quieter, and I'm not even talking about the hybrids. Seeing
>>>>>> Eye
>>>>>> does a lot of traffic training with our dogs, some of it using the
>>>>>> general public and some of it that they set up. Keeping a certain
>>>>>> distance from traffic is important. So if you can find a trainer who
>>>>>> is willing to work with you on that part, I recommend that. I hope
>>>>>> that ow am not sounding like I am against what you are doing, I'm
>>>>>> not.
>>>>>> I admire you for your effort, and wish you success.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I may offend some folks when I say the following: I do not believe
>>>>>> that a blind person can train me with a dog. Dogs and people move
>>>>>> faster than people who travel with canes, (though I know some very
>>>>>> fast walkers who use canes. There are certain parts of instruction
>>>>>> that a blind person could do, like some of the dog care, things like
>>>>>> that. But instructors see how the dog and person are walking
>>>>>> together, they can often figure out whether a different kind of
>>>>>> harness is needed, for instance.
>>>>>> Right away, my instructor saw that I was not giving Neena enough
>>>>>> tension in the harness, and that sometimes I was pushing her. I
>>>>>> don't
>>>>>> think that a blind instructor would see that. In those early days of
>>>>>> training it's so important to get feedback, and I really believe,
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> at least in this situation, that feedback needs to come from an
>>>>>> instructor who can make visual observations. Now, I have had two
>>>>>> blind mobility instructors, and they were awesome, and I had no issue
>>>>>> with them. But I think there's a difference between cane travel and
>>>>>> traveling with a dog.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's okay if you disagree with me, I had a friend while I was a
>>>>>> student at CCB and we debated this issue a lot. He never did
>>>>>> convince
>>>>>> me, by the way. (Grin). But it wasn't for lack of trying. But that
>>>>>> doesn't mean that I haven't learned a lot from other people who use
>>>>>> dogs as guides. I definitely have, but not the basics, and not stuff
>>>>>> dealing with dogs and traffic.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, I really need to be in bed now. Tomorrow is Friday, yea!
>>>>>> Maybe I'll get to more email then. Again, good luck, Valerie!
>>>>>> Debby and Neena
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> m
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----
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>>>>>> 08/21/14
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>>>>>> m
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>
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