[nagdu] An Introduction

[Tami Jarvis]

Julie,

I'm with you on seeing a strong will as an asset! It's also a major 
PITA, especially while the dog is still learning to use it for anything 
other than pure evil. When Loki first got home, he was so perfect it 
worried me, even though I knew it was a factor of his age and being in a 
new environment and all. Then he finally got comfortable enough to be 
bad, and I was so relieved! /lol/

Valerie,

I hear what you're saying about getting defensive because of all the 
extreme negativity when you are first owner-training, especially if it's 
your first guide dog, too. There are so many decisions to make and 
always new things to learn and adjust and most of it won't play out for 
another year or two so that you will find out if you made the right call 
or not and... Then here comes some Bozo who knows all about it and how 
wrong you are and also your dog sucks... Huh? Finally, I realized that 
Bozo inevitably turned out not to have a clue and was just capping on 
the blind woman for being human and not a hopeless case who needed help 
to pick her own nose, so I could just listen and move on. What was 
irritating was that I would start by treating the person as if they were 
engaging in an intelligent conversation and had something to offer and 
that they were generally being adult humans. I did find that if I 
continued to carry on my part of the conversation as if that were the 
case, the jerks would get frustrated and go away, saving me the bother 
of finding a way around them. /lol/ It's simple operant conditioning, 
really. Remove the reward -- whatever upset response they wanted from me 
since they were telling me all about how I suck -- and the behavior will 
extinguish itself as the subject goes in search of something more 
rewarding. Problem solved!

It is important to think through what you're doing -- which you clearly 
do -- so then some people will think you sound defensive when you do 
them the courtesy of answering their questions or explaining why you do 
something the way you do instead of how they know you should. Sigh.

Why did I choose poodle? Insanity maybe? /lol/ I had wanted a German 
Shepherd guide from The Seeing Eye ever since I saw Atta Girl, Kelly 
when I was a kid (yeah, I'm that old!). It came out just after I was 
diagnosed with RP, so I knew I would be blind someday. If that meant I 
could have my very own Kelly, then it couldn't be all bad! /smile/ When 
I first crossed into legal blindness in my late 30's, I began to plan to 
get a guide, but my then-husband was allergic to every dang thing. So I 
started learning about poodle guides and poodles in general. I ended up 
divorcing the spouse and his allergies, but I had gotten intrigued by 
poodles. I still yearned for a GSD and considered doberman. When I 
decided to owner-train, I though the non-shedding and perception that 
poodles are hypoallergenic would be convenient. Since I was new to 
handling a dog in the city and as a blind person, I also thought that 
the less intimidating reputation of the poodle would make life easier as 
I learned. I did not consider that poodles were very unusual as guides 
and that they are subject to a lot of mugging because everybody thinks 
they are so cute and sweet, not like dobermans or shepherds. Um... I've 
run into a few folks who know poodles, who will respect her back-off 
look, but we've kind of had to develop a special dance so that I can get 
between her and aggressive petters. And I have a whole repertoire of 
automatic responses to a ton of poodle-specific questions. /lol/ More 
folks have seen or heard of poodle guides now, so I don't have to go 
through all the "they don't use poodles for that," or "poodles can't be 
trained for that" routines. Whew!

When it was getting to be time to find Mitzi's successor, I again 
considered doberman, especially after Julie got Jetta. Dobies seem to 
have a lot of the traits I love in the poodle without the 
high-maintenance coat and the "nonsense factor." My husband is hooked on 
poodle, though, and I couldn't come up with a compelling argument 
against another one, except the grooming expense and the months of 
nonstep frenetic energy -- which he missed, only meeting Mitzi when she 
was trained and getting to be a grown up. When he complains about Loki, 
I can always remind him that I did warn him. /lol/ Loki isn't to that 
phase yet, so the wild energy only takes over him for an hour or two a 
day so far. He's about run my husband's dog into the ground, although 
she is certainly getting fitter than she's ever been. It is nice having 
all the lessons I learned from Mitzi to apply to this new kid. I'm sure 
he will teach me plenty more.

Tami

On 08/23/2014 04:37 AM, Julie J. via nagdu wrote:
> If there are sighted trainers on this list, they never contribute any
> posts or haven't in a such a very long time that we've all forgotten
> about them. There are a few people who work for or represent various
> guide dog programs, but they won't give you a hard time about owner
> training.   Not everyone on this list is a fan of owner training and
> they might speak up about their views, however you won't be put down or
> disrespected for your choices.  You might be asked questions or someone
> might explain why they see things differently, but seriously no one is
> going to send out the guide dog police on you.
>
> You asked why we chose the breeds we did so here goes.  Tia was my first
> guide.  She was a Tennessee Treeing Walker Coonhound.  I didn't choose
> her because of her breed.  I chose to train Tia because she was already
> in my home.  I didn't want another dog until I knew for sure that I
> could train a guide dog.   She was my experiment to see if I could train
> a guide or if I was off my rocker.  Back then I didn't know a single
> other owner trainer and the internet was not what it is today.
>
> Belle was my next guide.  She is a lab and something mix.  I used to
> think greyhound because of her body shape, but in recent years I'm
> leaning toward German Shepherd.   I chose her because of her
> temperament.   I wanted a dog who was good with other dogs, cats, was
> curious about her environment, easily trained, was okay with all sorts
> of people etc.
>
> Monty is my next guide.  I am still working him part time as well as
> Jetta part time.  Monty is a lab and Boxer mix.   I wanted a shorter
> haired dog this time.  I love his work ethic.  Even now when he's older,
> slowing down and anxious he still wants to go.  In harness he is focused
> on the work.  He does not want to be petted or interact with random
> people on the street.  I appreciate that.
>
> Jetta is a Doberman.  She was trained by Meghan because I didn't have
> the time to devote to her training to do it properly.   She has been
> here less than a week.  I chose the Doberman because it is a working
> breed.   She isn't into socializing with random people or really much of
> anyone besides me.  I appreciate her short coat, intelligence,
> trainability, work ethic, size, attention to detail, precision and ease
> of handling.  The biggest challenge with her so far is her testing.
> Dobermans are a breed who need a strong leader, but you can't be harsh
> with them.    Once we get the rules sorted out and she understands what
> is expected, we'll be good to go, but until then it feels like a battle
> of wills.  She is a very strong willed thing!   That will be a huge
> asset in the long run because she won't give in if I tell her forward
> when it's the wrong time.  Her intelligent obedience will be  well
> developed or at least that is what I'm told by other Doberman owners.
>
> Julie
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message----- From: Valerie Gibson via nagdu
> Sent: Friday, August 22, 2014 3:41 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] An Introduction
>
> Hi,
>
> So far I've tried the approach where I'll use the leash to correct him
> while holding the harness when he's destracted.  I also don't do a lot
> of harness work unless I'm sure he can handle it. It's just some times
> there's a dog nearby.  I live in a city where it's very common to see
> dogs with their owners out and about.  If we're in an area where I
> believe he won't train as well such as an outdoor mall, I'll just do
> leash work until we've built up to that point.  I don't know how, but I
> can usually tell when he's ready for something a little harder.  I may
> just subcontiously keep track of  his handling of the easier things and
> move onto harder things gradually without thinking about it.
>
> I think the reason I explain myself so much is because I know there must
> be sighted trainers here, and due to the discouragement I've gotten
> since I've had zion, it's become reflex.  I'll try to work on that. :)
> I'm actually not used to so much support with this, so defending my
> methods and decisions just pops up.
>
> On a slightly different note, what made you guys train the breeds you do?
>
>
> On Aug 22, 2014, at 2:10 PM, Julie J. <julielj at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>
>> LOL You didn't make me feel meek!  I'm just trying to explain to you
>> that you don't have to explain your decisions.  Seriously owner
>> trainers are really okay with existing outside of the box, so to speak.
>>
>> And would you please explain to my Doberman about being obedient?  She
>> didn't get that memo.  I've only had her since Sunday evening and she
>> is most definitely testing all the boundaries. I'm sure once she
>> figures out that I'm really for serious about the rules, she'll be
>> more obedient, but today well...
>>
>> I do get what you are saying about the trainability of the breeds you
>> listed, but it's a double edged sword.  Yes, the Doberman can learn
>> something with only a handful of repetitions, sometimes just once is
>> enough. that's cool, until you goof as a trainer.  If your dog needs
>> 50 repetitions to learn something and you mess up on number 35, it is
>> going to average out and the dog will get what you want.  If your dog
>> only needs 5 repetitions and you goof, the odds just went way up that
>> you've just trained the wrong thing.  Dogs that need more repetitions
>> do need more patience to train, but dogs with a high trainability need
>> a high level of consistency.  So I guess it comes down to what the
>> strengths of the trainer are or what the trainer is willing to do to
>> work with the dog.
>>
>> I don't know your training approach, so I'll offer a couple of
>> solutions that immediately come to mind.  Feel free to use what works
>> and ignore the rest.
>>
>> You can use the leash in your right hand to apply gentle pressure
>> forward. This requires a pretty flexible person with a good sense of
>> balance because it is physically difficult to have one hand on the
>> handle with pressure back, one arm out forward keeping the dogs head
>> forward and to keep walking. It also leaves you with only the ability
>> to offer verbal praise.   It does work though.  This is what worked
>> best with Belle, my guide before Monty.
>>
>> With Monty I used an incompatible behavior.  He was most distracted by
>> other dogs.  So at first if he saw another dog, I'd turn and go
>> directly back the way I just came from.   This breaks his line of
>> sight of the dog and gets his attention back on me.  Once he was
>> behaving, I'd turn back toward the dog.   Each time I'd work him just
>> a tiny bit closer to the other dog.  In one session we might only make
>> it a few feet closer.  It is easiest if there are dogs behind fences
>> to work with because they will stay the same distance away and won't
>> break away from the owner accidentally.
>>
>> If the dog was on a leash with its owner I might move up into a
>> driveway or yard and get Monty to sit or nose target my hand.
>> anything that he could be successful with while the other dog passed
>> by.  I'd reward for him doing anything, no matter how small, that
>> wasn't to do with the other dog.
>>
>> If your dog is not distracted by other dogs the above method will
>> still work, you just have to figure out what he's distracted by and
>> work back and forth to and from it until he can successfully ignore
>> it.  So if it's the smells from a bakery, you could walk close enough
>> until he just starts to show the first signs of being distracted, then
>> you back track and praise/give reward for his attention back on you.
>> Then back toward the bakery praising and rewarding for good posture
>> and attention until you anticipate he will become distracted, then
>> move away.  You want to plan for as much success as possible.
>>
>> Monty was very extremely dog distracted.  When I was first working
>> with him he would literally jump up and down and make the most pitiful
>> whining noises because he wanted to play with the other dogs.  There
>> were times I couldn't get far enough away from the other dog in time
>> and I'd just have to hold on to the leash and wait until the other dog
>> was gone.    It took months and months to get him past this problem.
>>
>> Honestly your dog sounds like a normal adolescent dog.  they all test
>> the boundaries.  You just have to keep at it and work on the
>> underlying issue. It might be helpful to back off on the harness part
>> of training until he is less distracted.   It will help him to build a
>> really solid foundation skill without splitting your concentration and
>> effort between two different things, distractions and harness work.
>> Or you could practice harness work in a lower distraction area where
>> he won't sniff or look and work on his distractions without the
>> harness in places where he struggles.
>>
>> Oh, I just thought of another approach.  Sometimes just stopping,
>> having the dog sit, and letting him look at whatever he is interested
>> in can be enough to satisfy his curiosity.  then you can have him
>> stand and be on your way again, distraction over.   I think it really
>> depends on the particular dog and how they make sense of the world.
>>
>> Best of luck,
>> Julie
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message----- From: Valerie Gibson via nagdu
>> Sent: Friday, August 22, 2014 1:35 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] An Introduction
>>
>> First, it was not my intention to give off the impression that dog
>> trainers were meek.  Forgive me if I made you feel that way.
>>
>> My point is that goldens,labs, poodles, even dobermens, germain
>> sheperds, etc all ranks 1 through 10 in trainability.  They'll obey a
>> command 95% of the time.  (See
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Intelligence_of_Dogs)
>>
>> I don't want to make it sound like it's not hard to train those dogs,
>> but they pick up on things much faster, so in a sense, yeah, you don't
>> need as much patience with those dogs, generally speaking, as you
>> would with an akita.
>>
>> Second, I know why he veers/curls.  He wants to sniff or go over to
>> the direction he's curling toward.  My uestion was more how to control
>> this and if it's something i should be particularly worried about
>> given his age and the reason why, not why he's doing it.
>>
>>
>> Thank you
>> On Aug 22, 2014, at 12:25 PM, Julie J. <julielj at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>
>>> You know, of all the owner trainers I know there is one who has a Lab
>>> and that's Rox and all her previous owner trained guides were not
>>> labs. There are Border Collies, GSD's, Poodles, Dobermans and all
>>> sorts of mixes. Owner trainers don't seem to lean toward Labs as
>>> their preferred breed. Also I have never met a meek owner trainer.
>>> We all seem to be confident, and self assured or fake it really
>>> well.  Yes, there are moments of doubt and feelings of utter failure,
>>> but you put on the big kid underpants and deal.
>>>
>>> Traffic training refers to the process of teaching the dog to respect
>>> traffic and keep the handler out of harms way from traffic.  The
>>> exact process varies from owner trainer to owner trainer or program
>>> to program, I suppose.  The end result is all the same...a dog who
>>> will actively avoid letting you become road pizza.
>>>
>>> Your curling or veering issue can be caused from a variety of
>>> things.  If your posture or alignment is out of whack, it can cause
>>> the dog to try to compensate.  If you are  putting pressure on the
>>> handle unevenly it can cause the dog to lean into the higher pressure
>>> point.  An ill fitting harness  or too short handle could cause this
>>> too.  Being distracted is a big one as is a bit of confusion or
>>> uncertainty in a particular area. Most dogs will curl in toward the
>>> handler if they are being extra cautious or visually checking for a
>>> tight clearance situation.   If it only lasts for a few steps and the
>>> dog gets back facing forward, I wouldn't worry about it. If it's
>>> happening frequently or for long stretches, then I'd start
>>> experimenting to see how to address it.
>>>
>>> Julie
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message----- From: Valerie Gibson via nagdu
>>> Sent: Friday, August 22, 2014 12:46 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] An Introduction
>>>
>>> Hi guys,
>>>
>>> Just another quick question, but I feel a bit out of the loop here on
>>> something.  What do you guys mean by "traffic training".  I mean, I
>>> think I understand what you mean,but I just want to make sure we're
>>> on the same page.
>>>
>>> Also, what are your methods for teaching this.
>>>
>>> In regards to philosophy.  I teach zion with posative reenforcement
>>> until he has mastered a command. Once I know he's mastered it, I move
>>> onto correctional methods.  For him, I use a prong collar.  With that
>>> being said, I'd like to add a couple comments.
>>>
>>> First, I know how to use one, and I won't let anyone take the leash
>>> of my dog (even if they're a friend and trying to help), if they do
>>> not know how to use one.  I've seen them misused, and I can see why
>>> they get such a bad rep for it.
>>>
>>> Second, the prong collar is not for every dog.  My dog is one of the
>>> spitz breeds, much like the husky.  If you've seen a husky, you know
>>> what I mean. For those who haven't, he's literally a fluf ball. I
>>> think a few enches of his hight is taken up by fur. He's got a course
>>> outer coat and a very dense wooly undercoat.  The prong collar is the
>>> only collar that I know will reach his skin.
>>>
>>> Third, Because I know he's gotten a command down, I really hardly
>>> ever have to use it accept in cases of high destractions, and even
>>> then it's a rare thing. Usualy, we'll be walking forward, he'll se
>>> another dog, look at that dog and whine, but continue walking forward.
>>>
>>> When Zion is especially distracted, I'll put the gentle leader on
>>> him, and honestly, he hates it more than the prong collar.  I think
>>> I've gotten more comments on animal cruelty with the gentle leader
>>> than the prong collar, and that's just because he makes such a fuss
>>> over it.
>>>
>>> The gentle leader has it's place, but I don't consider it a training
>>> collar because there's no correction given.  Well, I think the only
>>> way it could be use in training is that it can teach a dog right and
>>> left pretty easily.
>>>
>>> And now for my last question.
>>>
>>> I'd be eager and excited to start a devision for blind dog trainers,
>>> since there's not one.  How would I get the ball rolling on this?  I
>>> envision changing the world in regards to dog training by this.  I
>>> imagine a devision like this to be a place where we could talk about
>>> training philosophies as wel as nonvisual ways to train a dog, a way
>>> where we could reach out to blind pet owners and let our trained dogs
>>> speak for themselves in regards to our training, a place and way to
>>> reach out to sighted trainers who'd be willing to give us a shot and
>>> offer some pointers for what we might need, a way to train dogs for
>>> other blind people, etc.
>>> Quick side note, I usually don't like training dogs for other people.
>>> With the akita, it's ill advised because they form such strong and
>>> long lasting attachments with the handler, it's better to owner train
>>> them in any work they may do.
>>>
>>> As  stated before, akitas were bred to think and do their job without
>>> step by step instruction from the handler because they were bred for
>>> hunting. With the retrievers like the lab and golden, the owner gave
>>> a command, which was usually to retrieve, and the dog carried it
>>> out.  This makes them, what we'd call, eager to please.
>>>
>>> If I do train a dog for someone else, especially if it were a guide
>>> dog, I'd prefer to have the dog live with it's owner handler, and
>>> that person would take on the responsibilities of taking care of it.
>>> This provides the owner handler with more time to bond with the dog.
>>>
>>> There have been times when I've gotten frustrated and had to take a
>>> deep breath when it comes to Zion.  Having to take him out every 3
>>> hours, dealign with horrible bout of clostridium, dealing with health
>>> issues that didn't affect his training but health issues nonetheless,
>>> cleaning up after him when he decides to throw a completely full bowl
>>> of water across my livingroom, etc.  But I wouldn't trade those
>>> moments for anything. They will be memories I will look back on and
>>> cherish.  I'm sure puppy raisers can relate to this, and I think
>>> blind people who want a guide dog trained by a blind person should
>>> have these memories.
>>>
>>> Also, I can see a problem where you'd have a trainer taking a dog in,
>>> training it, and because the trainer has more of a hard temperment
>>> the dog responds.  If the new owner handler has a softer temperment
>>> the dog may think, "this guy's no leader,he's a pushover. I'll obey
>>> this person while my real leader's around, but once they leave, I
>>> shall walk all over this new guy who thinks he can tell me what to
>>> do".  I'm probably still thinking of the akita breed, but Zion
>>> refuses to listen to anyone else when they give him a command.
>>> Acording to sighted people, he looks at them like, "and who are you
>>> to tell me what to do?" Then he'll look at me. Possibly with a dog
>>> that's eager to please, you won't have this problem.
>>>
>>> But that's just my perspective.  It does not mean that it's wrong or
>>> right or better.  If it's worked for you to take a dog on and train
>>> it for a blind person, more power to you. :)
>>>
>>> Please let me know how to get the ball rolling on a division for
>>> blind dog trainers, and I'll jump on that.
>>>
>>> ThanksOn Aug 22, 2014, at 9:08 AM, Danielle Sykora via nagdu
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Valerie and all,
>>>>
>>>> I am also very interested in dog training and I think it would be
>>>> beneficial to many people to form a dog training division. I plan on
>>>> owner training a dog in the future because I don't agree with forceful
>>>> methods of training among other things common to most programs.
>>>>
>>>> My dog does the same thing where he will move forward but angle either
>>>> to the left or right,  usually when he is distracted by something. In
>>>> this situation, I tell him "straight" and praise him when he looks
>>>> straight ahead.
>>>>
>>>> I have never found it difficult to read a dog's body language, as long
>>>> as they are on leash or close enough for me to touch them. I can
>>>> detect aggression in a dog before any vocalization, freezing, staring,
>>>> tail position etc.
>>>> I hope all goes well with Zion's training.
>>>> Danielle and Thai
>>>>
>>>> On 8/22/14, Dan Weiner via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>> The only thig I'mimagining you would definitely need help with is
>>>>> traffic
>>>>> checking since you, after all don't drive a car--smile.
>>>>>
>>>>> Dan
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy
>>>>> Ray via
>>>>> nagdu
>>>>> Sent: Friday, August 22, 2014 8:20 AM
>>>>> To: Julie J.; NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>> Users
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] An Introduction
>>>>>
>>>>> I have never trained a dog to guide and never will. I believe I can
>>>>> imagine
>>>>> that you wouldn't need a sighted trainer to help you. There could
>>>>> be a few
>>>>> things that someone who is sighted and whom you also trusted could
>>>>> help
>>>>> with. Sometimes they could see that your dog is posturing, for
>>>>> instance,
>>>>> about another dog, especially if it hasn't gotten to the stage
>>>>> where it is
>>>>> being vocal about it. However, it wouldn't be long before you were
>>>>> keenly
>>>>> aware of that fact without that help, so I can see being able to do
>>>>> this
>>>>> with very little sighted help.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cindy
>>>>>
>>>>> On Aug 22, 2014, at 5:40 AM, Julie J. via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Debby,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I just received Jetta, who was trained and placed with me by a blind
>>>>> trainer.  I am an experienced guide dog handler and I'm certain
>>>>> that makes
>>>>> a
>>>>> difference here.  Meghan followed behind Jetta and I either with
>>>>> her cane
>>>>> or
>>>>> with a sighted guide.  She had no difficulty keeping up when she
>>>>> was using
>>>>> her cane.  If I noticed Jetta doing something, like curling in
>>>>> toward me, I
>>>>> would mention it to Meghan so she could offer suggestions.   We
>>>>> skipped the
>>>>> part where the trainer clips a leash to the dog and walks alongside
>>>>> in the
>>>>> very beginning.  I've never liked that anyway.   I had no problems
>>>>> at all
>>>>> with our training arrangement.  Meghan knows Jetta very well
>>>>> because she
>>>>> has
>>>>> worked her frequently and nonvisually.  She could give me very
>>>>> specific
>>>>> information about how Jetta navigates her environment and what to
>>>>> expect.
>>>>> I
>>>>> believe that this was Meghan's first time independently placing a
>>>>> guide
>>>>> with
>>>>> a blind person.  It was a new  experience for both of us.
>>>>> Previously I
>>>>> had
>>>>> owner trained my guides.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If a person was entirely new to guide dogs and dogs in general I
>>>>>> think
>>>>> there would have had to be a lot more training with the person.
>>>>> The blind
>>>>> trainer would have to ask lots of questions and check for proper
>>>>> positioning
>>>>> when the team was standing still.  I think the blind trainer could
>>>>> use a
>>>>> sighted reader/describer to assess some of the visual elements.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As far as traffic training goes...it can be done by a blind
>>>>>> person, the
>>>>> dog portion anyway. *smile*  You just get a driver and explain very
>>>>> thoroughly what you need them to do.  If you can set up ongoing
>>>>> communication during the traffic training by cell phone head sets
>>>>> or walkie
>>>>> talkies or something, that makes it much easier.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Julie
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: debby phillips via nagdu
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2014 11:10 PM
>>>>>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] An Introduction
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Valerie, your post was very interesting, and I can see that you
>>>>>> have put a lot of time and thought in to the process.  I do not
>>>>>> believe that every blind person should and could train their own dog,
>>>>>> but I have seen one that was awesome.  The man who trained him did a
>>>>>> great job.  I believe though that his next dog was from one of the
>>>>>> schools.  I think I do have a couple of concerns.  One is this:
>>>>>> traffic is becoming more and more dangerous.  It doesn't mean that we
>>>>>> should all stay home and never go out.  Lol.  But it does mean that
>>>>>> we, and our dogs need to be extra aware.  Gone are the days of simply
>>>>>> listening for a surge of parallel traffic and heading across the
>>>>>> street.  There are turning lanes, right on red, and cars are just
>>>>>> plain quieter, and I'm not even talking about the hybrids.  Seeing
>>>>>> Eye
>>>>>> does a lot of traffic training with our dogs, some of it using the
>>>>>> general public and some of it that they set up.  Keeping a certain
>>>>>> distance from traffic is important.  So if you can find a trainer who
>>>>>> is willing to work with you on that part, I recommend that.  I hope
>>>>>> that ow am not sounding like I am against what you are doing, I'm
>>>>>> not.
>>>>>> I admire you for your effort, and wish you success.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I may offend some folks when I say the following: I do not believe
>>>>>> that a blind person can train me with a dog.  Dogs and people move
>>>>>> faster than people who travel with canes, (though I know some very
>>>>>> fast walkers who use canes.  There are certain parts of instruction
>>>>>> that a blind person could do, like some of the dog care, things like
>>>>>> that.  But instructors see how the dog and person are walking
>>>>>> together, they can often figure out whether a different kind of
>>>>>> harness is needed, for instance.
>>>>>> Right away, my instructor saw that I was not giving Neena enough
>>>>>> tension in the harness, and that sometimes I was pushing her.  I
>>>>>> don't
>>>>>> think that a blind instructor would see that.  In those early days of
>>>>>> training it's so important to get feedback, and I really believe,
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> at least in this situation, that feedback needs to come from an
>>>>>> instructor who can make visual observations.  Now, I have had two
>>>>>> blind mobility instructors, and they were awesome, and I had no issue
>>>>>> with them.  But I think there's a difference between cane travel and
>>>>>> traveling with a dog.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's okay if you disagree with me, I had a friend while I was a
>>>>>> student at CCB and we debated this issue a lot.  He never did
>>>>>> convince
>>>>>> me, by the way.  (Grin).  But it wasn't for lack of trying.  But that
>>>>>> doesn't mean that I haven't learned a lot from other people who use
>>>>>> dogs as guides.  I definitely have, but not the basics, and not stuff
>>>>>> dealing with dogs and traffic.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, I really need to be in bed now.  Tomorrow is Friday, yea!
>>>>>> Maybe I'll get to more email then.  Again, good luck, Valerie!
>>>>>> Debby and Neena
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>
>>>>>> m
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----
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>>>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>>>>> Version: 2012.0.2247 / Virus Database: 3955/7572 - Release Date:
>>>>>> 08/21/14
>>>>>>
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>>>>>> m
>>>>>
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>
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