[nagdu] An Introduction
Nicole Torcolini
ntorcolini at wavecable.com
Sat Aug 23 20:49:00 UTC 2014
Coming into this thread rather late, so this email is going to be a rather
long one.
First, Valerie, welcome to the list. You have already read some of my posts;
I just did not get a chance to officially welcome you as my work does not
always leave as much time as I would like to read/write emails. Glad that
you decided to come out of the shadows and join the lively discussions. A
little about myself to help explain some of my responses to various
discussions. My name is Nicole Torcolini. I live in California with my
female black lab, Lexia, who I received from Guide Dogs for the Blind in
July of 2007. At the time, GDB used more correction based training rather
than reward based training. In addition, the family pet who we had had for a
little over six years was an extremely stubborn Border Collie mix who came
from the humane society at about six or seven months without a "clean
slate". So, the training methods that I had at the time were a mixture of
what GDB had taught, which was largely correction based, and those methods
that worked well with a Border Collie. Some of the methods worked fine, even
though people would look at me like I was crazy; some of them worked
partially; and some of them either did not work at all or were just not
necessary.
I am glad that you did not let the fact that people think that a blind
person cannot train a dog bother you. I don't get that kind of stuff too
often, but, when I do, it really makes me mad.
I also like learning about animals. I find it interesting that certain
animals/breeds are motivated by different things. I also find measuring the
intelligence of different animals interesting. For example, someone might
say that cats are smarter than dogs, but they are basing that on how well
the animals follow commands, which is not necessarily always an accurate
measurement of intelligence.
In addition to the aspects of dogs that you mentioned, I think that another
important fact to remember is that, even though dogs have been domesticated
for centuries, they still act on instinct, so teaching them to act on
reasoning is not always easy. Whenever a dog feels frightened, excited, etc,
the dog is more likely to revert to instincts rather than reasoning. I
disagree on why hard tempered dogs will try to lead. Is it also not a
possibility that their mothers were not firm enough?
As far as the breed goes, whatever works for you. There is one list member
who trains her own dogs who also uses a wheelchair. She uses Huskies.
Yes, there are many different training methods, some of which some people do
not like. I am not saying that training your own dog is a bad thing, but you
might want to consider being a little more cautious about what implications
you make about people who get their dogs from programs. As I said in a
different thread, there is a difference in *want* and *can*.
That being said, there are definitely certain unwanted behaviors that can
come with a program trained dog.
I am glad that it would not have been the end of the world for you if Zion
did not become a guide dog. Just understand that that is not the case for
some of us, and that not everyone has the time, energy, patience, and
resources, particularly money, to throw at obtaining and training a dog if
they do not know if it will work out. Yes, program dogs can also not work
out, but the programs are prepared for this to happen.
I am glad that the breeder listened to well. I have never bought an animal
from a breeder, but I imagine that, sometimes, a breeder might not care what
you think.
I am curious to know if Zion went when you took him out in the middle of the
night. I know that he was a puppy, so things were obviously a little
different, but, unless there was a water bowl in his crate and he drank a
lot at night, I would doubt that he would need to go out in the middle of
the night. Again, just curious.
It sounds like you are taking a preemptive strike at some of the problems
that guide dog handlers often face, such as people petting the dog.
I definitely agree that the one size fits all does not work for training
techniques. As I said above, the family pet was a Border Collie mix, and the
difference between her obedience and Lexia's obedience was night and day.
Of course, everyone has a right to his/her own opinion, but, just as a
warning, the whole documentation issue is generally frowned upon by most
members of the list. I won't go into details, but we have been round and
round and up and down over the issue, with the end result always being that,
even though not apparent at first, requiring documentation would just cause
more problems than it would cause. Feel free to browse the archives if you
want more info. Also, as a side note, if you ever don't feel like browsing
the internet archives, I can send you some of the older emails if you want
them as I safe almost all of the emails.
Interesting about starting the harness training at seven months.
Oh, yes, he will figure out what you want. Probably, there will come a day
when he starts training himself. Even labs do that. You stop at a bench and
sit down. The next time you go by that bench, Zion will show it to you.
Okay, maybe not the second time, but, if you do it often enough, it does not
take long. And you may even find him trying to leash lead you some day in
the future, even though you did not teach him that. With Lexia, a lot of her
commands are a result of her observing what made me happy or what I did most
often and her trying to make me happy. Even the off leash commands that I
have for her were more her own doing than mine.
I am really glad that you realize that he is not ready for certain things,
and that you do not set him up to fail. I think that some people, although
certainly not on purpose, would do this and then blame the dog.
Also, out of curiosity, what exactly do you mean by *correct*?
I definitely agree with not wanting to train aggressive dogs.
Out of curiosity, is there any history behind the name Zion? As a random
fact, different programs have different methods for naming their dogs, which
also varies depending on whether or not they take donated dogs. Many of the
programs keep their own breeding stocks, which, JMHO, is the better thing to
do, even if it costs more, because it is possibly to closely monitor any
genetic problems and hopefully weed them out. GDB keeps its own breeding
stock. All puppies in a litter at GDB have names that start with the same
first letter. Some of the schools, including GDB, try not to have more than
one dog out in the field with the same name, so they tend to run out of
names, which is why you can get some pretty interesting dog names. And yes,
keep us posted on Zion's training. If it turns out that the rest of the list
is not interested, I certainly am.
Larry, I would be interested in hearing more about the Jack Russle as I know
that they can be a handful at times. I, too, don't have a problem with well
behaved pet dogs. Although this might make people mad, I would rather have a
well behaved pet around than a misbehaving service dog. No, pets don't
belong certain places, but it's more of a problem if the pet is misbehaving.
Tami, I love the way that you always manage to put a positive spin on
things. The problem that I sometimes find with trying to teach Lexia new
things is that she gets so excited about the clicker that she completely
misses what I am trying to teach her. Ugh, yes, I hate it when you ask for
certain information, or you don't ask for any at all, and you get unwanted
advice.
That's neat that Zion seems to be able to tell when people could use a
little help. Yes, dogs know who the dog lovers are. That is good that Zion
is showing you that he does not like certain people in a nonaggressive way.
I would caution against over using the protective trait too much. I do not
think that he would ever bite or snap at someone, but, if he did, I do not
think that being a service dog is enough to get out of being in trouble for
that. The "are you doing what I told you to" debate is definitely an
interesting one. Lexia will also turn before lying down if there is
something that she wants to see. Whether or not I make her lay down in the
original direction depends on a lot of things. For example, if I am out in
public and trying to keep her in my space and away from other people, I
might make lay down in the original direction. That is interesting that Zion
stopped for the pole; most dogs would have just gone around it, that is,
being that there was a way around it. And, yes, I know what you mean about
sighted people who just will not let it be. There is one person in
particular with whom I do not like walking because, no matter how many times
I point out that I have a guide dog and that I have somehow managed to not
get killed when that person is not with me, that person will not shut up.
Use whatever harness works for you. I don't think that any two schools use
the same harness. Although the part of the harness that goes around the dog
is the same at one school, most schools have up to four different
handles--long, regular, offset, and ergonomic. I have an offset handle
because my feet tend to turn out.
Julie, they do the extra leash thing at GDB, or at least they did when I was
there. However, they unhooked it on our first walk, the same walk where
there was a bee flying around Lexia's head.
Rox, I think that, in any art, a person who also does it is going to better
at training/making than someone who does not.
Valerie, there is absolutely nothing wrong with using a prong collar,
especially since it is the only thing that works. I absolutely hate it when
you tell someone that you use such-and-such equipment, and they immediately
go on the whole animal cruelty thing. There are different tools for
different things, and every tool can be misused. I know that it is not funny
about the gentle leader, but I cannot help laughing. Most of the guide dogs
that I have met who wear them try to rub them off on you.
Julie and all, another thing to remember, especially with dogs that learn
fast, is to never laugh at something. We made that huge mistake with the pet
Border Collie mix. It only takes once. Then, what you once thought was funny
and took only once for the dog to start doing over and over again becomes
this really annoying habit that you just cannot get rid of.
Nicole and Lexia
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of The Pawpower Pack
via nagdu
Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2014 11:37 AM
To: Valerie Gibson; NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] An Introduction
I think this is correct in many cases,
But in the case of my Doberman it was not. She's very high drive but does
not have much of a pull at all, but I can read her movements very clearly.
Before she got kidney disease, she could run for miles, chase the ball, and
guide all day and her pull was never hard.
The only dog I had a problem with, pull and pacewise was Gracy my border
collie. Her pull and pace were both too little for me. She was also very
short, so I think if she'd have been taller, like Laveau my dobe is, the
lack of pull wouldn't have been that big of a deal.
Rox and the kitchen Bitches:
Mill'E, Laveau, Soleil
Pawpower4me at gmail.com
Sent from my iPhone
> On Aug 23, 2014, at 10:48 AM, Valerie Gibson via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> Granted, I don't use Zion as a guide in harness for very long (only when
we're going to very familiar places and I know he can do the job), but
akitas are very long dogs. In fact, they are longer than they are tall, and
they are about 24 to 26 in ches at the withers on average. You'd think then
that he would be a very fast walker. Given that the breed was bred to pull
down game is another indecator. I've seen him run with other dogs when he
plays, and he does have some speed to him.
>
> It's funny because he really only likes to walk fast when he's got to use
the restroom. I guess that fast pace gets his bowels moving. Apart from
that and/or if he's destracted, he walks at a pace I'm comfortable with,
which may seem slow for him, but he does it nonetheless.
>
> Because Zion is a working dog breed, sometimes, when we're just out and
about, I'll use a cane and put a backpack on him. When he was much younger,
the backpack would be empty because he was still growing. Even now, the
backpack doesn't carry a lot of things because he's still growing, but for
some reason, with the backpack on, it helped me help him find my walking
speed. I'd praise him when he walked at that speed.
>
> One of the reasons I chose this breed was because he's not a high
> energy dog. He'll definitely give you activity if it's asked of him,
> but he is very flexible in that area. I'm sure he could hike for a
> couple miles when he's older if i wanted/needed, but he's also okay
> laying around or going for a casual stroll.I think the pull factor is
> based on a lot of variables, not just size such as: drive, breed *what
> was it originally bred to do), size, and handler. I don't think
> temperment has anything to do with pull. I think the word you're
> looking for is drive. :) You can have a soft tempered dog with a high
> drive, and that dog may pul you down the street if not trained to walk
> at a certain pace. You could have a stubborn hard tempered dog with a
> low drive (and I can't think of any breeds off the top of my head like
> this), but they might not want to walk you any where. lol
>
> When I got Zion, I didn't know too much of the temperament I was looking
for in a guide, but I knew I wanted a certain temperament in the dog, and
that's what I told the breeder. The temperament of the dog will determine
how he responds to various stimuli, and that will affect drive or the dog's
willingness to work.
>
> Ideally, i would have loved to see the puppies and how they interacted
with each other, their mother and other dogs for a day or so per week to
find the perfect puppy, but the breeder knew how important it was to find
the temperament I specified. She had never worked with guide dogs, but she
knew how important he would be. I was blessed that she picked out a dog
with a great temperament. He's actually more of a soft tempered dog than my
pet akita that I had as a child. This made it easier for me to train him in
things such as walking at my pace because I could more easily control his
drive.
>
> Hope this all makes sense and wasn't too long. :)
>
>> On Aug 23, 2014, at 8:08 AM, The Pawpower Pack via nagdu
<nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>
>> Buddy, Ginger and all,
>> My dogs, with the exception of one, always just walked at my speed. Pull
has varried with me a little more, but nothing too hard. It is easier to
get a hard puller to pull less than a no-puller to pull, so I do prefer the
dog pull and me bring it down to a reasonable level for me. I do not teach
a formal heel. My dog is always walking in a guiding position with a very
little tension on the lead.
>> My current dog is a morning person, and she is a faster walker and a
harder puller on our morning walk to the bus and work, but it's not out of
control, and I'm ok with walking a little faster in the morning. It will
wake me up, and it's actually a really neat feeling. The rest of the time
she travels at a more normal pace. I don't know if she does this because
she is a very young and live out loud lab, or if she is suited to her name
and is a sunny morning dog.
>>
>> Rox and the kitchen Bitches:
>> Mill'E, Laveau, Soleil
>> Pawpower4me at gmail.com
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>> On Aug 23, 2014, at 8:51 AM, Buddy Brannan via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
wrote:
>>>
>>> The last sighted trainer who said much of anything on this list was
Doug, and that was ages ago. Like a couple years, probably. About the
closest person to anyone who works for a guide dog school on the list would
be Jenine Stanley and Ginger Kutsch, and I can guarantee you neither of them
will give anyone a bad time about owner training.
>>>
>>> Speaking of, Ginger asked a question a couple weeks ago, to which I
haven't seen an answer. I'm curious to see what other people say about it.
She asked how owner trainers can ensure they get a dog that matches your
particular pace and pull preferences, as that's a big consideration in
matching at guide dog schools, and something they work pretty hard to match.
I have a couple thoughts on this that have absolutely no basis in anything
like, I don't know, experience.
>>>
>>> How much of a dog's natural walking speed and amount of pull into the
harness is based on temperament and genetics, and how much is based on
upbringing and environment? I, anyway, have no clue, but I suspect there's
more of it that's based on the latter than the former. That is to say, how
fast did the puppy raisers walk or expect their dogs to walk? How much, and
how far ahead, did they allow the puppy to pull ahead on the leash? Of
course,I suppose some of this *will* be personality or genetics, some dogs
just have more get up and go than others. Still, I'd also suspect that a dog
who has been working with someone from early days would have a pretty good
idea of that person's walking speed preferences. Pull seems to be something
worked out over time. With all three of my dogs, they've started out with
often quite a strong pull, but over time, it's always moderated to something
very similar in all three. I've always asked for a dog with a at least
moderate pull, at least in part because I like a bit more of that, but in
larger part because it would seem to me that it's easier to get a dog to
pull less than to get him to pull more.
>>>> On Aug 23, 2014, at 7:37 AM, Julie J. via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
wrote:
>>>>
>>>> If there are sighted trainers on this list, they never contribute any
posts or haven't in a such a very long time that we've all forgotten about
them. There are a few people who work for or represent various guide dog
programs, but they won't give you a hard time about owner training. Not
everyone on this list is a fan of owner training and they might speak up
about their views, however you won't be put down or disrespected for your
choices. You might be asked questions or someone might explain why they see
things differently, but seriously no one is going to send out the guide dog
police on you.
>>>>
>>>> You asked why we chose the breeds we did so here goes. Tia was my
first guide. She was a Tennessee Treeing Walker Coonhound. I didn't choose
her because of her breed. I chose to train Tia because she was already in
my home. I didn't want another dog until I knew for sure that I could train
a guide dog. She was my experiment to see if I could train a guide or if I
was off my rocker. Back then I didn't know a single other owner trainer and
the internet was not what it is today.
>>>>
>>>> Belle was my next guide. She is a lab and something mix. I used to
think greyhound because of her body shape, but in recent years I'm leaning
toward German Shepherd. I chose her because of her temperament. I wanted
a dog who was good with other dogs, cats, was curious about her environment,
easily trained, was okay with all sorts of people etc.
>>>>
>>>> Monty is my next guide. I am still working him part time as well as
Jetta part time. Monty is a lab and Boxer mix. I wanted a shorter haired
dog this time. I love his work ethic. Even now when he's older, slowing
down and anxious he still wants to go. In harness he is focused on the
work. He does not want to be petted or interact with random people on the
street. I appreciate that.
>>>>
>>>> Jetta is a Doberman. She was trained by Meghan because I didn't have
the time to devote to her training to do it properly. She has been here
less than a week. I chose the Doberman because it is a working breed. She
isn't into socializing with random people or really much of anyone besides
me. I appreciate her short coat, intelligence, trainability, work ethic,
size, attention to detail, precision and ease of handling. The biggest
challenge with her so far is her testing. Dobermans are a breed who need a
strong leader, but you can't be harsh with them. Once we get the rules
sorted out and she understands what is expected, we'll be good to go, but
until then it feels like a battle of wills. She is a very strong willed
thing! That will be a huge asset in the long run because she won't give in
if I tell her forward when it's the wrong time. Her intelligent obedience
will be well developed or at least that is what I'm told by other Doberman
owners.
>>>>
>>>> Julie
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Valerie Gibson via nagdu
>>>> Sent: Friday, August 22, 2014 3:41 PM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] An Introduction
>>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> So far I've tried the approach where I'll use the leash to correct him
while holding the harness when he's destracted. I also don't do a lot of
harness work unless I'm sure he can handle it. It's just some times there's
a dog nearby. I live in a city where it's very common to see dogs with
their owners out and about. If we're in an area where I believe he won't
train as well such as an outdoor mall, I'll just do leash work until we've
built up to that point. I don't know how, but I can usually tell when he's
ready for something a little harder. I may just subcontiously keep track of
his handling of the easier things and move onto harder things gradually
without thinking about it.
>>>>
>>>> I think the reason I explain myself so much is because I know there
must be sighted trainers here, and due to the discouragement I've gotten
since I've had zion, it's become reflex. I'll try to work on that. :) I'm
actually not used to so much support with this, so defending my methods and
decisions just pops up.
>>>>
>>>> On a slightly different note, what made you guys train the breeds you
do?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Aug 22, 2014, at 2:10 PM, Julie J. <julielj at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> LOL You didn't make me feel meek! I'm just trying to explain to you
that you don't have to explain your decisions. Seriously owner trainers are
really okay with existing outside of the box, so to speak.
>>>>>
>>>>> And would you please explain to my Doberman about being obedient? She
didn't get that memo. I've only had her since Sunday evening and she is
most definitely testing all the boundaries. I'm sure once she figures out
that I'm really for serious about the rules, she'll be more obedient, but
today well...
>>>>>
>>>>> I do get what you are saying about the trainability of the breeds you
listed, but it's a double edged sword. Yes, the Doberman can learn
something with only a handful of repetitions, sometimes just once is enough.
that's cool, until you goof as a trainer. If your dog needs 50 repetitions
to learn something and you mess up on number 35, it is going to average out
and the dog will get what you want. If your dog only needs 5 repetitions
and you goof, the odds just went way up that you've just trained the wrong
thing. Dogs that need more repetitions do need more patience to train, but
dogs with a high trainability need a high level of consistency. So I guess
it comes down to what the strengths of the trainer are or what the trainer
is willing to do to work with the dog.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't know your training approach, so I'll offer a couple of
solutions that immediately come to mind. Feel free to use what works and
ignore the rest.
>>>>>
>>>>> You can use the leash in your right hand to apply gentle pressure
forward. This requires a pretty flexible person with a good sense of balance
because it is physically difficult to have one hand on the handle with
pressure back, one arm out forward keeping the dogs head forward and to keep
walking. It also leaves you with only the ability to offer verbal praise.
It does work though. This is what worked best with Belle, my guide before
Monty.
>>>>>
>>>>> With Monty I used an incompatible behavior. He was most distracted by
other dogs. So at first if he saw another dog, I'd turn and go directly
back the way I just came from. This breaks his line of sight of the dog
and gets his attention back on me. Once he was behaving, I'd turn back
toward the dog. Each time I'd work him just a tiny bit closer to the other
dog. In one session we might only make it a few feet closer. It is easiest
if there are dogs behind fences to work with because they will stay the same
distance away and won't break away from the owner accidentally.
>>>>>
>>>>> If the dog was on a leash with its owner I might move up into a
driveway or yard and get Monty to sit or nose target my hand. anything that
he could be successful with while the other dog passed by. I'd reward for
him doing anything, no matter how small, that wasn't to do with the other
dog.
>>>>>
>>>>> If your dog is not distracted by other dogs the above method will
still work, you just have to figure out what he's distracted by and work
back and forth to and from it until he can successfully ignore it. So if
it's the smells from a bakery, you could walk close enough until he just
starts to show the first signs of being distracted, then you back track and
praise/give reward for his attention back on you. Then back toward the
bakery praising and rewarding for good posture and attention until you
anticipate he will become distracted, then move away. You want to plan for
as much success as possible.
>>>>>
>>>>> Monty was very extremely dog distracted. When I was first working
with him he would literally jump up and down and make the most pitiful
whining noises because he wanted to play with the other dogs. There were
times I couldn't get far enough away from the other dog in time and I'd just
have to hold on to the leash and wait until the other dog was gone. It
took months and months to get him past this problem.
>>>>>
>>>>> Honestly your dog sounds like a normal adolescent dog. they all test
the boundaries. You just have to keep at it and work on the underlying
issue. It might be helpful to back off on the harness part of training until
he is less distracted. It will help him to build a really solid foundation
skill without splitting your concentration and effort between two different
things, distractions and harness work. Or you could practice harness work
in a lower distraction area where he won't sniff or look and work on his
distractions without the harness in places where he struggles.
>>>>>
>>>>> Oh, I just thought of another approach. Sometimes just stopping,
having the dog sit, and letting him look at whatever he is interested in can
be enough to satisfy his curiosity. then you can have him stand and be on
your way again, distraction over. I think it really depends on the
particular dog and how they make sense of the world.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best of luck,
>>>>> Julie
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Valerie Gibson via nagdu
>>>>> Sent: Friday, August 22, 2014 1:35 PM
>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] An Introduction
>>>>>
>>>>> First, it was not my intention to give off the impression that dog
trainers were meek. Forgive me if I made you feel that way.
>>>>>
>>>>> My point is that goldens,labs, poodles, even dobermens, germain
>>>>> sheperds, etc all ranks 1 through 10 in trainability. They'll
>>>>> obey a command 95% of the time. (See
>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Intelligence_of_Dogs)
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't want to make it sound like it's not hard to train those dogs,
but they pick up on things much faster, so in a sense, yeah, you don't need
as much patience with those dogs, generally speaking, as you would with an
akita.
>>>>>
>>>>> Second, I know why he veers/curls. He wants to sniff or go over to
the direction he's curling toward. My uestion was more how to control this
and if it's something i should be particularly worried about given his age
and the reason why, not why he's doing it.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you
>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2014, at 12:25 PM, Julie J. <julielj at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You know, of all the owner trainers I know there is one who has a Lab
and that's Rox and all her previous owner trained guides were not labs.
There are Border Collies, GSD's, Poodles, Dobermans and all sorts of mixes.
Owner trainers don't seem to lean toward Labs as their preferred breed. Also
I have never met a meek owner trainer. We all seem to be confident, and
self assured or fake it really well. Yes, there are moments of doubt and
feelings of utter failure, but you put on the big kid underpants and deal.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Traffic training refers to the process of teaching the dog to respect
traffic and keep the handler out of harms way from traffic. The exact
process varies from owner trainer to owner trainer or program to program, I
suppose. The end result is all the same...a dog who will actively avoid
letting you become road pizza.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Your curling or veering issue can be caused from a variety of things.
If your posture or alignment is out of whack, it can cause the dog to try to
compensate. If you are putting pressure on the handle unevenly it can cause
the dog to lean into the higher pressure point. An ill fitting harness or
too short handle could cause this too. Being distracted is a big one as is
a bit of confusion or uncertainty in a particular area. Most dogs will curl
in toward the handler if they are being extra cautious or visually checking
for a tight clearance situation. If it only lasts for a few steps and the
dog gets back facing forward, I wouldn't worry about it. If it's happening
frequently or for long stretches, then I'd start experimenting to see how to
address it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Julie
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Valerie Gibson via nagdu
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, August 22, 2014 12:46 PM
>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>> Users
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] An Introduction
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi guys,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just another quick question, but I feel a bit out of the loop here on
something. What do you guys mean by "traffic training". I mean, I think I
understand what you mean,but I just want to make sure we're on the same
page.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Also, what are your methods for teaching this.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In regards to philosophy. I teach zion with posative reenforcement
until he has mastered a command. Once I know he's mastered it, I move onto
correctional methods. For him, I use a prong collar. With that being said,
I'd like to add a couple comments.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> First, I know how to use one, and I won't let anyone take the leash
of my dog (even if they're a friend and trying to help), if they do not know
how to use one. I've seen them misused, and I can see why they get such a
bad rep for it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Second, the prong collar is not for every dog. My dog is one of the
spitz breeds, much like the husky. If you've seen a husky, you know what I
mean. For those who haven't, he's literally a fluf ball. I think a few
enches of his hight is taken up by fur. He's got a course outer coat and a
very dense wooly undercoat. The prong collar is the only collar that I know
will reach his skin.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Third, Because I know he's gotten a command down, I really hardly
ever have to use it accept in cases of high destractions, and even then it's
a rare thing. Usualy, we'll be walking forward, he'll se another dog, look
at that dog and whine, but continue walking forward.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When Zion is especially distracted, I'll put the gentle leader on
him, and honestly, he hates it more than the prong collar. I think I've
gotten more comments on animal cruelty with the gentle leader than the prong
collar, and that's just because he makes such a fuss over it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The gentle leader has it's place, but I don't consider it a training
collar because there's no correction given. Well, I think the only way it
could be use in training is that it can teach a dog right and left pretty
easily.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And now for my last question.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'd be eager and excited to start a devision for blind dog trainers,
since there's not one. How would I get the ball rolling on this? I
envision changing the world in regards to dog training by this. I imagine a
devision like this to be a place where we could talk about training
philosophies as wel as nonvisual ways to train a dog, a way where we could
reach out to blind pet owners and let our trained dogs speak for themselves
in regards to our training, a place and way to reach out to sighted trainers
who'd be willing to give us a shot and offer some pointers for what we might
need, a way to train dogs for other blind people, etc.
>>>>>> Quick side note, I usually don't like training dogs for other people.
With the akita, it's ill advised because they form such strong and long
lasting attachments with the handler, it's better to owner train them in any
work they may do.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As stated before, akitas were bred to think and do their job without
step by step instruction from the handler because they were bred for
hunting. With the retrievers like the lab and golden, the owner gave a
command, which was usually to retrieve, and the dog carried it out. This
makes them, what we'd call, eager to please.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If I do train a dog for someone else, especially if it were a guide
dog, I'd prefer to have the dog live with it's owner handler, and that
person would take on the responsibilities of taking care of it. This
provides the owner handler with more time to bond with the dog.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There have been times when I've gotten frustrated and had to take a
deep breath when it comes to Zion. Having to take him out every 3 hours,
dealign with horrible bout of clostridium, dealing with health issues that
didn't affect his training but health issues nonetheless, cleaning up after
him when he decides to throw a completely full bowl of water across my
livingroom, etc. But I wouldn't trade those moments for anything. They will
be memories I will look back on and cherish. I'm sure puppy raisers can
relate to this, and I think blind people who want a guide dog trained by a
blind person should have these memories.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Also, I can see a problem where you'd have a trainer taking a dog in,
training it, and because the trainer has more of a hard temperment the dog
responds. If the new owner handler has a softer temperment the dog may
think, "this guy's no leader,he's a pushover. I'll obey this person while my
real leader's around, but once they leave, I shall walk all over this new
guy who thinks he can tell me what to do". I'm probably still thinking of
the akita breed, but Zion refuses to listen to anyone else when they give
him a command. Acording to sighted people, he looks at them like, "and who
are you to tell me what to do?" Then he'll look at me. Possibly with a dog
that's eager to please, you won't have this problem.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But that's just my perspective. It does not mean that it's wrong
>>>>>> or right or better. If it's worked for you to take a dog on and
>>>>>> train it for a blind person, more power to you. :)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Please let me know how to get the ball rolling on a division for
blind dog trainers, and I'll jump on that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ThanksOn Aug 22, 2014, at 9:08 AM, Danielle Sykora via nagdu
<nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Valerie and all,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am also very interested in dog training and I think it would
>>>>>>> be beneficial to many people to form a dog training division. I
>>>>>>> plan on owner training a dog in the future because I don't agree
>>>>>>> with forceful methods of training among other things common to most
programs.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My dog does the same thing where he will move forward but angle
>>>>>>> either to the left or right, usually when he is distracted by
>>>>>>> something. In this situation, I tell him "straight" and praise
>>>>>>> him when he looks straight ahead.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have never found it difficult to read a dog's body language,
>>>>>>> as long as they are on leash or close enough for me to touch
>>>>>>> them. I can detect aggression in a dog before any vocalization,
>>>>>>> freezing, staring, tail position etc.
>>>>>>> I hope all goes well with Zion's training.
>>>>>>> Danielle and Thai
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 8/22/14, Dan Weiner via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>> The only thig I'mimagining you would definitely need help with
>>>>>>>> is traffic checking since you, after all don't drive a car--smile.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Dan
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>>>>>>> Cindy Ray via nagdu
>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, August 22, 2014 8:20 AM
>>>>>>>> To: Julie J.; NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of
>>>>>>>> Guide Dog Users
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] An Introduction
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I have never trained a dog to guide and never will. I believe I
>>>>>>>> can imagine that you wouldn't need a sighted trainer to help
>>>>>>>> you. There could be a few things that someone who is sighted
>>>>>>>> and whom you also trusted could help with. Sometimes they could
>>>>>>>> see that your dog is posturing, for instance, about another
>>>>>>>> dog, especially if it hasn't gotten to the stage where it is
>>>>>>>> being vocal about it. However, it wouldn't be long before you
>>>>>>>> were keenly aware of that fact without that help, so I can see
being able to do this with very little sighted help.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cindy
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2014, at 5:40 AM, Julie J. via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Debby,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I just received Jetta, who was trained and placed with me by a
>>>>>>>>> blind
>>>>>>>> trainer. I am an experienced guide dog handler and I'm certain
>>>>>>>> that makes a difference here. Meghan followed behind Jetta and
>>>>>>>> I either with her cane or with a sighted guide. She had no
>>>>>>>> difficulty keeping up when she was using her cane. If I
>>>>>>>> noticed Jetta doing something, like curling in toward me, I
>>>>>>>> would mention it to Meghan so she could offer suggestions. We
skipped the
>>>>>>>> part where the trainer clips a leash to the dog and walks alongside
in the
>>>>>>>> very beginning. I've never liked that anyway. I had no problems
at all
>>>>>>>> with our training arrangement. Meghan knows Jetta very well
>>>>>>>> because she has worked her frequently and nonvisually. She
>>>>>>>> could give me very specific information about how Jetta
>>>>>>>> navigates her environment and what to expect.
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> believe that this was Meghan's first time independently placing
>>>>>>>> a guide with
>>>>>>>> a blind person. It was a new experience for both of us.
Previously I
>>>>>>>> had
>>>>>>>> owner trained my guides.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If a person was entirely new to guide dogs and dogs in general
>>>>>>>>> I think
>>>>>>>> there would have had to be a lot more training with the person.
The blind
>>>>>>>> trainer would have to ask lots of questions and check for
>>>>>>>> proper positioning when the team was standing still. I think
>>>>>>>> the blind trainer could use a sighted reader/describer to
>>>>>>>> assess some of the visual elements.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As far as traffic training goes...it can be done by a blind
>>>>>>>>> person, the
>>>>>>>> dog portion anyway. *smile* You just get a driver and explain
>>>>>>>> very thoroughly what you need them to do. If you can set up
>>>>>>>> ongoing communication during the traffic training by cell phone
>>>>>>>> head sets or walkie talkies or something, that makes it much
easier.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Julie
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: debby phillips via nagdu
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2014 11:10 PM
>>>>>>>>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] An Introduction
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi Valerie, your post was very interesting, and I can see that
>>>>>>>>> you have put a lot of time and thought in to the process. I
>>>>>>>>> do not believe that every blind person should and could train
>>>>>>>>> their own dog, but I have seen one that was awesome. The man
>>>>>>>>> who trained him did a great job. I believe though that his
>>>>>>>>> next dog was from one of the schools. I think I do have a couple
of concerns. One is this:
>>>>>>>>> traffic is becoming more and more dangerous. It doesn't mean
>>>>>>>>> that we should all stay home and never go out. Lol. But it
>>>>>>>>> does mean that we, and our dogs need to be extra aware. Gone
>>>>>>>>> are the days of simply listening for a surge of parallel
>>>>>>>>> traffic and heading across the street. There are turning
>>>>>>>>> lanes, right on red, and cars are just plain quieter, and I'm
>>>>>>>>> not even talking about the hybrids. Seeing Eye does a lot of
>>>>>>>>> traffic training with our dogs, some of it using the general
>>>>>>>>> public and some of it that they set up. Keeping a certain
>>>>>>>>> distance from traffic is important. So if you can find a
>>>>>>>>> trainer who is willing to work with you on that part, I recommend
that. I hope that ow am not sounding like I am against what you are doing,
I'm not.
>>>>>>>>> I admire you for your effort, and wish you success.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I may offend some folks when I say the following: I do not
>>>>>>>>> believe that a blind person can train me with a dog. Dogs and
>>>>>>>>> people move faster than people who travel with canes, (though
>>>>>>>>> I know some very fast walkers who use canes. There are
>>>>>>>>> certain parts of instruction that a blind person could do,
>>>>>>>>> like some of the dog care, things like that. But instructors
>>>>>>>>> see how the dog and person are walking together, they can
>>>>>>>>> often figure out whether a different kind of harness is needed,
for instance.
>>>>>>>>> Right away, my instructor saw that I was not giving Neena
>>>>>>>>> enough tension in the harness, and that sometimes I was
>>>>>>>>> pushing her. I don't think that a blind instructor would see
>>>>>>>>> that. In those early days of training it's so important to
>>>>>>>>> get feedback, and I really believe, that at least in this
>>>>>>>>> situation, that feedback needs to come from an instructor who
>>>>>>>>> can make visual observations. Now, I have had two blind
>>>>>>>>> mobility instructors, and they were awesome, and I had no
>>>>>>>>> issue with them. But I think there's a difference between cane
travel and traveling with a dog.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It's okay if you disagree with me, I had a friend while I was
>>>>>>>>> a student at CCB and we debated this issue a lot. He never
>>>>>>>>> did convince me, by the way. (Grin). But it wasn't for lack
>>>>>>>>> of trying. But that doesn't mean that I haven't learned a lot
>>>>>>>>> from other people who use dogs as guides. I definitely have,
>>>>>>>>> but not the basics, and not stuff dealing with dogs and traffic.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Well, I really need to be in bed now. Tomorrow is Friday, yea!
>>>>>>>>> Maybe I'll get to more email then. Again, good luck, Valerie!
>>>>>>>>> Debby and Neena
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>> m
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>
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