[nagdu] Retired Guides; Do the same access laws apply?

Wed Dec 31 19:53:11 UTC 2014

Hi, Julie and All,

I think perhaps many of us have forgotten the context of the original question with respect to retired guide dogs--that the questioner was describing a situation where the handler and a family member were taking both the current guide and the retired guide to the vet simultaneously using paratransit. I believe the handler was working the current guide and the family member was handling the retired guide. In this situation, I think it is clear that the retired guide is just that, a retired guide, and not a working or occasionally-working guide. I see no reason why such a retired guide should be considered anything other than a pet and should have to be treated as such, no matter how well-behaved the animal is or whether it is known to have been a working guide at some time in the past. If the paratransit driver or a business owner wants to allow the dog to be treated as a service animal, then there is probably no legal reason why that can't be done (except perhaps for places where the health department says no pets should be allowed, such as restaurants.) But if I am working a current guide and my husband or sister is handling a retired guide and we are both going anywhere, I think it is perfectly reasonable that the retired dog should be considered a pet with respect to all animal control and access laws and regulations.

Now I know that the ADA does not limit a person with disabilities to one service dog. So I suppose a handler could work two dogs at the same time and expect access to public accommodations and transportation in the same manner as if he/she were working just one dog. In that case, it would be up to the sense of ethics of the person to determine whether that was a fair or just way to proceed.

I know that the people who adopt retired guide dogs through the guide dog programs are reminded that the dogs are considered pets and that the new owners/handlers do not have the right to expect any additional access to public places with the retired guide than they would have with any other family pet. I don't think this rule should be changed just because the retired guide stays with its former handler. Yes, when and if it is being used as a guide during a period of semi-retirement, it should be considered a service dog under the definition of the ADA. But if the handler is being guided by a successor dog and the retired guide is just being brought along for a walk or to visit the vet, etc., I do not think the handler should try to assert that it is included in the definition of a service dog for the purposes of access to public accommodations. Likewise, if a person has two working service dogs, then accommodations should be granted for both under the fair housing act; but if one dog is retired, then it should be considered a pet and pet policies should apply to that dog.

Anyway, that's just my opinion, but I believe that's the way the law sees the situation at this point in time.

Best,
Ann

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie J. via nagdu
Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2014 12:25 PM
To: Jenine Stanley; NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Retired Guides; Do the same access laws apply?

I have seen guide dogs, not retired, who shouldn't have been wherever they were at the time, because they were a poor example of how guide dogs should behave.  I've seen a dog whine and cry through an entire dinner theater 
show.    I've been to many conventions where dogs pooped on the floor from 
stress.  I've heard dogs barking like mad in hotel rooms.  I've been around dogs who scarfed up any tidbit of food within reach.

If a dog shouldn't be someplace, I don't think it has much to do with a label like "retired".  I think it's about how the dog is behaving and if it's providing a service.  There are certainly young dogs that struggle with behavior and doing their job and there are older, "retired" dogs that could easily manage to be well behaved and do the job in specific circumstances. 
Of course that's setting aside issues of health or why the dog was retired in the first place.  And that is really the heart of the issue...why the dog was retired and how that interferes with the possibility of limited working.

Applying a label like, "retired" changes nothing.  If a dog is out in public working, then legally it is a service dog so long as it is mitigating the handler's disability.  It makes no difference if the only place the dog ever goes is to the ladies quilt club once per month or if the dog goes places three times a day every day.  The law says nothing about frequency of work. 
After all there is a huge variance in the amount of work that guide dogs get depending on the particular lifestyle and needs of the handler.

The public thinks all sorts of odd and random things about guide dogs.  I've stopped worrying about it.  I am currently working two guides, interchangeably, depending on what I'm doing, where I'm going and who got to go last time is how I pick who goes next time.  I do this because it meets my needs at this time.  I am not skipping out on paying a pet deposit.  I am not getting anything for free or extra privileges of any variety.

I think there's a huge difference between switching back and forth between dogs and misrepresenting a dog that isn't working as a service dog.

JMHO
Julie
Courage to Dare: A Blind Woman's Quest to Train her Own Guide Dog is now available! Get the book here:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00QXZSMOC
Visit my new website on developing courage and living authentically:
http://www.falling-up.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Jenine Stanley via nagdu
Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2014 9:13 AM
To: Tracy Carcione ; NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Retired Guides; Do the same access laws apply?

Interesting arguments for the status of a “retired” dog.

I’ll say this, and it’s not a reflection of anything more than my personal opinion.

Just because you can do something doesn’t mean it’s the right thing to do. 
If we want others to obey the laws and be honest about what their dogs do or don’t do for them, we need to lead by example.

Sure, I can take my now retired dog in harness anywhere I want and he’s technically still an assistance dog because he is minimally working and expected to behave as such but to do so to get out of paying a pet deposit?

I’m not saying that’s what Chaim is doing as I’ve known him as a very ethical person over the years but it is something to ponder.

It’s also hard to justify the dog who stays home most of the time and is rarely seen doing any type of work as being a currently working assistance dog.

Just saying’.
Jenine Stanley
jeninems at wowway.com

http://www.twitter.com/jeninems

> On Dec 31, 2014, at 8:24 AM, Tracy Carcione via nagdu 
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> wrote:
>
> But you could, if you wanted.  Julie J's argument is an interesting 
> one I never thought of before.  If, say, I occasionally worked my 
> retired guide to some place in the neighborhood, he'd still 
> technically be a service dog.  I think it might give my current guide 
> kinnipchins, but it could certainly be done.
> Tracy
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nicole Torcolini via nagdu" 
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> To: "'Julie J.'" <julielj at neb.rr.com>; "'NAGDU Mailing List,the 
> National Association of Guide Dog Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>; "'Chaim B. Segal'"
> <chaimsegal at sbcglobal.net>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2014 5:29 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Retired Guides; Do the same access laws apply?
>
>
>> Since dogs that are trained at schools are mostly done with their 
>> training when given to their handlers, I do not think that as many 
>> people who receive dogs from schools work a new dog and a partially 
>> retired dog.
>>
>> Nicole
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie J. 
>> via nagdu
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2014 2:21 PM
>> To: Chaim B. Segal; NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of 
>> Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Retired Guides; Do the same access laws apply?
>>
>> The factors that make a dog a service dog are:
>> *is the dog individually trained to mitigate a disability?
>> a retired guide is still trained to do specific tasks.  If the 
>> training is kept up and the dog can reliably perform disability 
>> related tasks, then this item is met.
>> *does the handler have a disability?
>> the answer here is yes
>> *does the dog perform tasks that mitigate the handler's disability?
>> the answer here is maybe.   If you still work the dog sometimes or 
>> alternate
>>
>> between dogs, then I'd say both are service dogs.  If you never work 
>> the dog, then he's not mitigating your disability and is no longer a 
>> service dog.
>>
>> HTH
>> Julie
>> Courage to Dare: A Blind Woman's Quest to Train her Own Guide Dog is 
>> now available! Get the book here:
>> http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00QXZSMOC
>> Visit my new website on developing courage and living authentically:
>> http://www.falling-up.com
>> -----Original Message----- From: Chaim B. Segal via nagdu
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2014 3:19 PM
>> To: seeingeye-l at list.web.net
>> Cc: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> Subject: [nagdu] Retired Guides; Do the same access laws apply?
>>
>> Hi All on both lists:
>>
>> Chaim Segal here. It looks as though I will likely need to move out 
>> of my current house in the nearly immediate future, as my mother 
>> needs to enter senior care. At present time, my current earnings are 
>> not enough to sustain rent in our current town-house. Therefore, I 
>> need to weigh my options when moving myself and my wife out into an 
>> apartment. Our current apartment manager has been gracious, and has 
>> not charged us an extra pet deposit for Keeper (my third guide) once 
>> he retired. We only pay a deposit for our cat which my wife and I 
>> purchased as a kitten around six years ago. This being said, I have 
>> been hearing conflicting information throughout the years.
>>
>> At some point back in the 90s, I thought I once heard that a retired 
>> guide dog has the same access rules regarding rent and access that a 
>> currently working guide has. I was surprised to hear that. I was not 
>> considering the fact that I would need to know for sure some day.
>>
>>  Earlier this year, my mother and I attempted to take both Keeper and 
>> Yahtzee (current guide) to the vet on paratransit. The driver 
>> insisted that Keeper must be in a carrier while riding the bus. 
>> Officials at Greater Dayton RTA backed her up. At the time, I did not 
>> pursue the matter, because the driver in question is uncomfortable 
>> with dogs to begin with.
>>
>> So, I now need to know one way or the other, in order to determine 
>> how many pet deposits will need to be paid. The best I could hope for 
>> is to find a place where pets are welcome without a silly deposit or 
>> fee. But, is Keeper considered a pet, or does he still have higher 
>> status despite his retirement?
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> Chaim
>>
>> Chaim B. Segal
>> Customer Service Representative
>> Sinclair Community College
>> E-mail: chaimsegal at sbcglobal.net
>>
>> Every man, woman, every boy and girl, Let your love light shine, make 
>> a better world.
>> [Daryl Hall & John Oates
>>
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