[nagdu] Retired Guides; Do the same access laws apply?

Wed Dec 31 17:24:49 UTC 2014

I have seen guide dogs, not retired, who shouldn't have been wherever they 
were at the time, because they were a poor example of how guide dogs should 
behave.  I've seen a dog whine and cry through an entire dinner theater 
show.    I've been to many conventions where dogs pooped on the floor from 
stress.  I've heard dogs barking like mad in hotel rooms.  I've been around 
dogs who scarfed up any tidbit of food within reach.

If a dog shouldn't be someplace, I don't think it has much to do with a 
label like "retired".  I think it's about how the dog is behaving and if 
it's providing a service.  There are certainly young dogs that struggle with 
behavior and doing their job and there are older, "retired" dogs that could 
easily manage to be well behaved and do the job in specific circumstances. 
Of course that's setting aside issues of health or why the dog was retired 
in the first place.  And that is really the heart of the issue...why the dog 
was retired and how that interferes with the possibility of limited working.

Applying a label like, "retired" changes nothing.  If a dog is out in public 
working, then legally it is a service dog so long as it is mitigating the 
handler's disability.  It makes no difference if the only place the dog ever 
goes is to the ladies quilt club once per month or if the dog goes places 
three times a day every day.  The law says nothing about frequency of work. 
After all there is a huge variance in the amount of work that guide dogs get 
depending on the particular lifestyle and needs of the handler.

The public thinks all sorts of odd and random things about guide dogs.  I've 
stopped worrying about it.  I am currently working two guides, 
interchangeably, depending on what I'm doing, where I'm going and who got to 
go last time is how I pick who goes next time.  I do this because it meets 
my needs at this time.  I am not skipping out on paying a pet deposit.  I am 
not getting anything for free or extra privileges of any variety.

I think there's a huge difference between switching back and forth between 
dogs and misrepresenting a dog that isn't working as a service dog.

JMHO
Julie
Courage to Dare: A Blind Woman's Quest to Train her Own Guide Dog is now 
available! Get the book here:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00QXZSMOC
Visit my new website on developing courage and living authentically:
http://www.falling-up.com
-----Original Message----- 
From: Jenine Stanley via nagdu
Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2014 9:13 AM
To: Tracy Carcione ; NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide 
Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Retired Guides; Do the same access laws apply?

Interesting arguments for the status of a “retired” dog.

I’ll say this, and it’s not a reflection of anything more than my personal 
opinion.

Just because you can do something doesn’t mean it’s the right thing to do. 
If we want others to obey the laws and be honest about what their dogs do or 
don’t do for them, we need to lead by example.

Sure, I can take my now retired dog in harness anywhere I want and he’s 
technically still an assistance dog because he is minimally working and 
expected to behave as such but to do so to get out of paying a pet deposit?

I’m not saying that’s what Chaim is doing as I’ve known him as a very 
ethical person over the years but it is something to ponder.

It’s also hard to justify the dog who stays home most of the time and is 
rarely seen doing any type of work as being a currently working assistance 
dog.

Just saying’.
Jenine Stanley
jeninems at wowway.com

http://www.twitter.com/jeninems

> On Dec 31, 2014, at 8:24 AM, Tracy Carcione via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> 
> wrote:
>
> But you could, if you wanted.  Julie J's argument is an interesting one I 
> never thought of before.  If, say, I occasionally worked my retired guide 
> to some place in the neighborhood, he'd still technically be a service 
> dog.  I think it might give my current guide kinnipchins, but it could 
> certainly be done.
> Tracy
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nicole Torcolini via nagdu" 
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> To: "'Julie J.'" <julielj at neb.rr.com>; "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National 
> Association of Guide Dog Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>; "'Chaim B. Segal'" 
> <chaimsegal at sbcglobal.net>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2014 5:29 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Retired Guides; Do the same access laws apply?
>
>
>> Since dogs that are trained at schools are mostly done with their 
>> training
>> when given to their handlers, I do not think that as many people who 
>> receive
>> dogs from schools work a new dog and a partially retired dog.
>>
>> Nicole
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie J. via
>> nagdu
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2014 2:21 PM
>> To: Chaim B. Segal; NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide 
>> Dog
>> Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Retired Guides; Do the same access laws apply?
>>
>> The factors that make a dog a service dog are:
>> *is the dog individually trained to mitigate a disability?
>> a retired guide is still trained to do specific tasks.  If the training 
>> is
>> kept up and the dog can reliably perform disability related tasks, then 
>> this
>> item is met.
>> *does the handler have a disability?
>> the answer here is yes
>> *does the dog perform tasks that mitigate the handler's disability?
>> the answer here is maybe.   If you still work the dog sometimes or 
>> alternate
>>
>> between dogs, then I'd say both are service dogs.  If you never work the
>> dog, then he's not mitigating your disability and is no longer a service
>> dog.
>>
>> HTH
>> Julie
>> Courage to Dare: A Blind Woman's Quest to Train her Own Guide Dog is now
>> available! Get the book here:
>> http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00QXZSMOC
>> Visit my new website on developing courage and living authentically:
>> http://www.falling-up.com
>> -----Original Message----- From: Chaim B. Segal via nagdu
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2014 3:19 PM
>> To: seeingeye-l at list.web.net
>> Cc: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> Subject: [nagdu] Retired Guides; Do the same access laws apply?
>>
>> Hi All on both lists:
>>
>> Chaim Segal here. It looks as though I will likely need to move out of my
>> current house in the nearly immediate future, as my mother needs to enter
>> senior care. At present time, my current earnings are not enough to 
>> sustain
>> rent in our current town-house. Therefore, I need to weigh my options 
>> when
>> moving myself and my wife out into an apartment. Our current apartment
>> manager has been gracious, and has not charged us an extra pet deposit 
>> for
>> Keeper (my third guide) once he retired. We only pay a deposit for our 
>> cat
>> which my wife and I purchased as a kitten around six years ago. This 
>> being
>> said, I have been hearing conflicting information throughout the years.
>>
>> At some point back in the 90s, I thought I once heard that a retired 
>> guide
>> dog has the same access rules regarding rent and access that a currently
>> working guide has. I was surprised to hear that. I was not considering 
>> the
>> fact that I would need to know for sure some day.
>>
>>  Earlier this year, my mother and I attempted to take both Keeper and
>> Yahtzee (current guide) to the vet on paratransit. The driver insisted 
>> that
>> Keeper must be in a carrier while riding the bus. Officials at Greater
>> Dayton RTA backed her up. At the time, I did not pursue the matter, 
>> because
>> the driver in question is uncomfortable with dogs to begin with.
>>
>> So, I now need to know one way or the other, in order to determine how 
>> many
>> pet deposits will need to be paid. The best I could hope for is to find a
>> place where pets are welcome without a silly deposit or fee. But, is 
>> Keeper
>> considered a pet, or does he still have higher status despite his
>> retirement?
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> Chaim
>>
>> Chaim B. Segal
>> Customer Service Representative
>> Sinclair Community College
>> E-mail: chaimsegal at sbcglobal.net
>>
>> Every man, woman, every boy and girl,
>> Let your love light shine, make a better world.
>> [Daryl Hall & John Oates
>>
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