[nagdu] nagdu Digest, Vol 107, Issue 11

Thu Feb 13 15:24:51 UTC 2014

I'm sorry my first message was sent by accident before I finished it.  Having our guides safely out of the way should be taught at all schools.  At GEB it is not a lecture but taught from the very beginning as we sit in chairs in the lobby.  Our dogs know "place", between our legs and "down" to lay slid back under our chairs.  Everything is taught as we experience going to a store or having a meal.  It astonishes me that all schools don't do the same.
Donna & Aaron 

Sent from my iPad

> On Feb 13, 2014, at 7:00 AM, nagdu-request at nfbnet.org wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
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>   1. Re: Guide dog schools (L Gwizdak)
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> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2014 15:26:44 -0800
> From: "L Gwizdak" <leg1950 at cox.net>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,    the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>    <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide dog schools
> Message-ID: <9A5328A0E3744365AC5009091763F975 at lindagwizdak>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8";
>    reply-type=original
> 
> Yeah, you'd think the schools would stress putting the dog out of the way. 
> The people from one of the other schools did say their school didn't really 
> stress this or teach it.  Or they were telling me a fib and they really were 
> sleeping throough that lecture!
> 
> Lyn and Landon
> "Asking who's the man and who's the woman in an LGBT relationship is like 
> asking which chopstick is the fork" - Unknown
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: <barbandzoe at comcast.net>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, February 10, 2014 8:47 AM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide dog schools
> 
> 
>> That was an interesting letter. When I was young, in the 60"s and 70's. 
>> most all the dogs I met were from TSE. they seemed well behaved and good 
>> in public. But when you said that many schools don't have the person tuck 
>> the dog under a table or chair when out with other people seems odd to me. 
>> I would think they would have you do that just for safety of the dog, so 
>> he doesn't get stepped on, and for the people around, so they don't trip. 
>> when I have my pets out with me they are under the chair or table for just 
>> that reason.
>> Barb
>> 
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> 
>> From: "L Gwizdak" <leg1950 at cox.net>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, February 6, 2014 1:21:48 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide dog schools
>> 
>> Hi folks,
>> Yeah, I'm actually alive! I just don't get much time to post these days.
>> We are undergoing massisve changes at our blind center (which I got 
>> started
>> a little over a year ago with some bigotry by board members) and we are in 
>> a
>> Mayoral race here in San Diego.
>> 
>> Anyway, I have my dogs from The Seeing Eye and I love the place. Yes,
>> friendly but professional. To really understand the philosophy and
>> practises of TSE, read Love in the Lead by Peter Putnam. When you look at
>> it and how society was back in 1929 towards the blind, TSE was 
>> REVOLUTIONARY
>> in its approach to dealing with blind people. It does remind me of an 
>> early
>> version of NFB way before there actually was the NFB. There were
>> progressively thinking folks both sighted and blind involved with the 
>> school
>> from Day 1.
>> 
>> We see some of the customs of TSE a bit archaic but it is understandable
>> when you read the history behind the customs. Now things are very much 
>> less
>> formal than years gone by. We still dress a bit nicer for lunch but not 
>> the
>> dresses for women and ties and jackets for men anymore. For both sexes, a
>> nice top and even nice jeans are fine nowadays. At lunch, that's when the
>> school's whole staff, employees, administration folks, kennel folks,
>> vetrinarian staff, and visitors gather in the dining room for lunch. We
>> students use this as a training opportunity as the dining room is set up
>> like a restaurant than all but the students and our trainers are already
>> seated and eating when we arrive in the dining room. We have to work our
>> dogs past their tables to get to our tables - just like you do in a
>> restaurant.
>> 
>> TSE also sees blind adults as we are - adults just like any other adults.
>> We are treated as such with respect. We can respect ourselves as well. No
>> paternalism at TSE as far as I could see.
>> 
>> I do see that our training and handling of our dogs a bit more strict 
>> while
>> we are at TSE. Emphasis is on getting our dogs under control and out of 
>> the
>> way when hanging out or in the public areas of the school. After we 
>> recieve
>> harnesses, we are expected to work the dogs in harness in all areas except
>> for the student dorm wing. TSE prides itself on well trained and well
>> behaved guide dogs and our training to keep this up. It makes us as blind
>> handlers look good and the demeanor of the dogs looks good and a positive
>> face is shown to the general public when we all go home with our dogs. A
>> fantastic compliment is when someone says, "I didn't know there was a dog 
>> in
>> here! How quiet and wwell behaved it is!"
>> 
>> I think most schools also teach these skills in having a well trained and
>> well behaved guide. They want their school to look good to the public as
>> well. But, I think there are some areas where other schools don't seem to
>> place as much priority on making sure your dog is out of the way when we 
>> are
>> seated at a restaurant or a meeting. At my blind center, dogs are sprawled
>> ouot behind people's chairs instead of under the tables or next to the
>> chairs with the dog's butt under the table. I've asked people about their
>> training and they said that they didn't get taught to pay attention to 
>> where
>> their dog was. And some schools have very long leashes.
>> 
>> This is not any smack against other schools. Just observations with people
>> I'm around who have dogs from other schools.
>> 
>> Take care all and before you know it you'll be swealtering in horrible
>> summer heat and all the snow and ice will be a distant memory!
>> 
>> Lyn and Landon
>> "Asking who's the man and who's the woman in an LGBT relationship is like
>> asking which chopstick is the fork" - Unknown
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Aleeha Dudley" <blindcowgirl1993 at gmail.com>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2014 4:40 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide dog schools
>> 
>> 
>>> I found the environment at the Seeing Eye very family ish. I had my share
>>> of personal issues while I was there and the staff and trainers were
>>> nothing but helpful. The trainer on duty at night would often hang around
>>> the students. We really got to know our specific trainers and I have
>>> nothing but good things to say about the program and its staff. I did not
>>> find it too formal and several times I benefited from knowing the reasons
>>> for some of the rules.
>>> Aleeha and Dallas
>>>> On 2/6/2014 2:42 AM, Julie McGinnity wrote:
>>>> Hi Tracey,
>>>> 
>>>> I agree with Ravin. I have heard the same things about the Seeing
>>>> Eye, though I would never say them myself since I have never attended
>>>> there. I know TSE turns out good dogs, and I have heard good things
>>>> about the training staff.
>>>> 
>>>> But yes, I felt like there was a family atmosphere at GEB. On our
>>>> time off, the trainers would come out and chat with us, work with us,
>>>> or help to answer any questions we had. It was clear that they were
>>>> there to work with us and instruct us on how to use our dogs, but they
>>>> never had an attitude of cold professionalism. They were very
>>>> friendly, open, and professional in an informal way. Perhaps this
>>>> treatment is not for everyone, but I loved it when I was there.
>>>> 
>>>> That actually happened to me. My dog jumped on my bed to lay next to
>>>> me in the middle of the night, without me realizing it, and the
>>>> trainer saw this in the morning. I suppose my curtains weren't fully
>>>> drawn... I thought we were going to be in sooooo much trouble, but
>>>> the trainer actually thought it was hysterical, and she realized I
>>>> probably didn't realize what my dog had done. Well, and she knew the
>>>> dog in question... How she got up there while on tie down, I still do
>>>> not understand. The point is that the trainers and staff get to know
>>>> us as people as well as dog users, and they are very chill and
>>>> encouraging.
>>>> 
>>>>> On 2/5/14, Tracy Carcione <carcione at access.net> wrote:
>>>>> Hi Raven.
>>>>> I have experienced the same level of helpfulness at TSE and GDB. I
>>>>> guess I
>>>>> 
>>>>> just don't call it by the same name.
>>>>> 
>>>>> When I've been caught by a trainer doing something against the rules, 
>>>>> he
>>>>> or
>>>>> 
>>>>> she has not exactly scolded me, but has pointed out why the rule is in
>>>>> place.
>>>>> I think that's better than ignoring the transgression. It makes sure I
>>>>> know
>>>>> 
>>>>> the reason, but leaves the choice up to me.
>>>>> Sorry, but I've met plenty of Guiding Eyes graduates who don't exercise
>>>>> any
>>>>> 
>>>>> discipline over their dogs at all, or so it seems to me. I've also met
>>>>> some
>>>>> 
>>>>> who do, but, as usual, it's the slobs who stick out. Maybe I just run
>>>>> into
>>>>> more GEB users around New York, too.
>>>>> Tracy
>>>>> 
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>>> From: "Raven Tolliver" <ravend729 at gmail.com>
>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 11:23 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide dog schools
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Hi Tracy,
>>>>>> As someone who attended GEB, I believe the family atmosphere that most
>>>>>> students' experience has more to do with the level of attention and
>>>>>> help they receive from everyone, not just their assigned instructor.
>>>>>> The instructors, nurses, and kitchen staff were all willing to
>>>>>> accommodate students' needs and requests. If anyone needed help, there
>>>>>> was always someone available who could assist you or answer your
>>>>>> questions. They treated us with the most care and compassion, you
>>>>>> know, like family members.
>>>>>> Also, the atmosphere during my class was very casual and laid-back.
>>>>>> None of the staff were uptight about anything. They would eat meals
>>>>>> with us, joke around with us, and they never talked to any of us as if
>>>>>> we were below them.
>>>>>> In addition, while GEB set boundaries for the dogs in dorm rooms, the
>>>>>> instructors never jumped down anyone's throat for not sticking to
>>>>>> those boundaries. For instance, a friend of mine allowed her dog up on
>>>>>> her bed. An instructor visited her to talk about something and saw
>>>>>> this, but the instructor did not scold her about it at all. Another
>>>>>> time, my instructor walked back to my room with me to look at
>>>>>> something. When we entered my room, my dog was freely roaming my room.
>>>>>> Now, we had only been together for 2 weeks. He had left my cheese and
>>>>>> crackers on the night table untouched, the food bin in the open closet
>>>>>> untouched, and the plastic waste bin on the ground untouched. My
>>>>>> instructor did not scold me about this at all. She only commented that
>>>>>> I had a very good dog.
>>>>>> So that familial atmosphere has nothing to do with the negative things
>>>>>> you listed. It is about the way staff interact with students. Of
>>>>>> course, we associate it with our own school because that's the
>>>>>> experience we have to speak of. Not because our school is hovering
>>>>>> over us like helicopter parents, or because other schools don't
>>>>>> measure up, or because other schools are below ours.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 2/5/14, Tracy Carcione <carcione at access.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> I saw someone here with a Guiding Eyes dog trot out the old chestnut
>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>> how formal The Seeing Eye is. I guess it was formal, 40 years ago,
>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>> hasn't been so for quite a long time. It's amazing how long that idea
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> sticking around.
>>>>>>> To me, the atmosphere at TSE was like that at GDB, what I call
>>>>>>> friendly
>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> professional.
>>>>>>> I often hear people talk about the "family atmosphere" of their
>>>>>>> school.
>>>>>>> I'm
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> never sure what that means. Does it mean people who feel they can
>>>>>>> poke
>>>>>>> into
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> my personal business? Does it mean people who gossip about everyone
>>>>>>> else?
>>>>>>> Does it mean we're us, and they're the big smelly them?
>>>>>>> None of these things appeal to me. I'm more comfortable with friendly
>>>>>>> professional--we like each other, but mainly we're here to do a great
>>>>>>> job
>>>>>>> together.
>>>>>>> Tracy
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>> Raven
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> 
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> End of nagdu Digest, Vol 107, Issue 11
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