[nagdu] Age of Qualifying Guide Dogs

Daryl Marie crazymusician at shaw.ca
Thu Feb 20 17:07:36 UTC 2014 

Hi, Julie,

That's great!  I think it is an itneresting concept!  *smiles*  Good on ya!

Daryl
----- Original Message -----
From: Julie J. <julielj at neb.rr.com>
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thu, 20 Feb 2014 09:51:12 -0700 (MST)
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Age of Qualifying Guide Dogs

Yes, you have it exactly right!  Monty is my current guide, who I owner 
trained.  I also owner trained my previous guides.  I have never attended a 
program.  My next guide, Jetta, I plan on picking up from the trainer this 
fall.  when exactly depends on when she is ready, when I can find a driver 
and the weather.  I'm in Nebraska and the trainer is in Wisconsin.

Jetta is a Doberman.  I purchased her from a breeder here in Nebraska.  I 
brought her home when she was 8 weeks old.  she stayed with me for about 10 
days.  she was an adorable puppy!  She has been with the trainer ever since. 
Meghan Whalen is the trainer.  she is also a member of this list.  She is 
blind and has owner trained one guide dog, raised several puppies, and has 
trained several guide/service dogs.

Owner training isn't particularly difficult, but it is incredibly time 
consuming.  It requires a lot of planning and a daily commitment to doing 
the work.  I'm at a place in my life where I have other things I'd rather be 
doing, so I went with a trainer this time.  I'm very picky about what I want 
in a guide and none of the current programs offer exactly what I want.  My 
list of must have's includes full ownership with no strings attached, my 
breed of choice, clicker training, use of food rewards and  premium foods. 
I'm also very excited about picking out my own puppy, getting updates 
throughout the process, deciding what and how I want my dog trained, off 
leash manners, knowing the puppy raiser/trainer, minimal moves between 
homes, no kennel environment and the ability to see my puppy if I choose.

I'm about 6 months into the process.  So far I'm very, extremely pleased. 
I do miss Jetta and wish I lived closer so I could visit more often, but I 
have no desire to actually do the training myself.  It's been five years 
since I trained Monty, but I still vividly remember how much work it is. 
This has been the perfect solution for me.

Julie


-----Original Message----- 
From: Daryl Marie
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 10:28 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Age of Qualifying Guide Dogs

Julie, I've come late to the party... can you explain a little about what 
you are doing?  Looks like, from what I have read, Monty was an 
owner-trained guide dog and Jetta is being trained by a trainer somewhere? I 
am curious.

Daryl
----- Original Message -----
From: Julie J. <julielj at neb.rr.com>
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thu, 20 Feb 2014 09:17:07 -0700 (MST)
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Age of Qualifying Guide Dogs

This topic has been very interesting to me.  My current plan is that Jetta
will come back to me at about 16 months old.  she will be fully trained at
that point.   I have always planned to work both Jetta and Monty part time,
switching back and forth, so Jetta can ease into guiding and Monty can ease
into retirement.  We'll see how that works out.

Jetta is 8 months old right now and she doesn't have any of the bad manners
described of young dogs.  She doesn't resource guard, mouth people, pull on
leash or chew up stuff.  Perhaps she hasn't come into true adolescence yet
and she'll go crazy doing all sorts of bad stuff, but I kind of doubt it.
I'm sure she will do some of the testing and asserting her ideas in the next
few months.  Honestly though, I am pretty confident that she'll be ready at
a young age.  She has never been a crazy, out of control puppy and I don't
see why that won't continue.

I do realize that no matter how nice her behavior and manners are, there is
physical and mental development that doesn't occur until later.  I'll need
to be mindful of that and not ask her to do more than she can.

Perhaps being an owner trainer and now having Jetta privately trained is a
different situation from the discussion here.  I don't know.  All of my dogs
have eased into the role of guiding.  There has not been an abrupt change
from being trained to being totally responsible for guiding.  I have done
that transition gradually.  I let the dog guide when he can and train in
situations he isn't ready to navigate.  It sounds complicated, but really it
doesn't require much thought.  You know what your dog can do and what he
can't.

Jetta will be different, of course.  Still I'm used to working young dogs in
limited situations and letting them get their sea legs, so to speak.
Perhaps if I lived in a big city or traveled a ton or had other more high
intensity lifestyle, then an older dog would be the way to go.  I don't
know.

Julie



-----Original Message----- 
From: Raven Tolliver
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 9:58 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Age of Qualifying Guide Dogs

15 months? Whoa! That is playing with fire.
When I made the assembly line reference, I was referring to the way
guide dogs themselves are evaluated and trained at certain schools. It
is more an assembly line for the dogs than the people. The matching
process at any place better be as meticulous as possible. I would
expect that from the worst schools.
I guess I am very sensitive to the age issue because I deal with
adolescent and adult dogs of multiple breeds on a regular basis. I've
seen firsthand the difference 6 months can make.
I am also passionate about this issue, because I am hearing what I
call horror stories about these young dogs being sent home with
people. Resource guarding, mouthiness, unnecessary retrieving,
horrible leash manners, and flat out refusal to work some days and
then eagerness to work others. Schools telling people their dogs will
"grow out of it." Well, I sure hope so! It's just too bad they
couldn't wait till the dog was well-refined before they handed it
over.
I'm not sure how new or traditional this is, schools putting out dogs
so young, but I know that in other countries, schools don't dream of
issuing adolescent dogs, and other assistance dog programs don't
either, and for a multitude of good reasons. I think the economy might
have something to do with this. Just maybe? The earlier you put dogs
out, the less money you have to spend providing for them, especially
when you have a large breeding stock, number of litters or gdits on
the docket.
This is not to bash any school or to undermine the relationship or
stability of any of the little ones working out there. However, the
differences in age are quiet noticeable, and the consensus is out.
Some programs and trainers choose to ignore that, and they are doing a
number of dogs and handlers a great disservice. Not everyone, but a
great number, for sure.

On 2/20/14, Daryl Marie <crazymusician at shaw.ca> wrote:
> oh, Jenny is a wiggler!  My husband has nicknamed her "wiggles".  I don't
> mind so much if she's out of harness and old friends come and say hi.  But
> when she meets new people, I always remind her "manners" and it seems to
> calm her down. it's cute!
>
> Daryl
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Deanna Lewis <DLewis at clovernook.org>
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thu, 20 Feb 2014 07:37:09 -0700 (MST)
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Age of Qualifying Guide Dogs
>
> Pascal was 19 months old when I received him in 2009, and he was one of
> the
> youngest dogs in our class. Most of the other dogs were about 22 months
> old.
> He has always been very mature, and very well behaved. He didn't want to
> lie
> down on floors or get underneath tables, for the first few months. And, he
> seemed to mature at lot once he hit 3 years old. He has never been one of
> those wiggly labs, you know the ones who get so excited their whole body
> wiggles! LOL
> One of my co-workers just got a dog that is only 15 months old. She is
> very
> puppy like!
> Deanna and Pascal
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sherry Gomes
> Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2014 5:37 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Age of Qualifying Guide Dogs
>
> I think the same could apply to labs. My current guide is a reissue, so
> she
> was three when we trained together. what a difference! I don't want my
> next
> guide to be 18 months old as so many are when graduating. Two years old is
> the youngest I'd want and I'd jump to have a reissue again. Though having
> said that, Bianca, who was about 2 when we trained and is 13 now is still
> young at heart and full of spirit and a sort of happy puppy mentality.
> Olga,
> my working guide is 8 and has a very old soul. I'm sure she was always
> that
> way even when she was a baby.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tami Jarvis
> Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2014 12:01 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Age of Qualifying Guide Dogs
>
> Ooh! Research! Poodles are said to mature later, both physically and
> mentally, and I did find that with mine. She really came into her own
> between 3 and 4. Then again, I've heard of a few people getting really
> young
> poodles that seem to work out well. Okay. Off to read. /smile/
>
> Tami
>
> On 02/19/2014 10:22 AM, "Leye-Shprintse Öberg" wrote:
>> BS"D
>>
>> Raven,
>>
>> * "... I did some research and found a study on Seeing Eye dogs that
> concluded that goldens and GSds are more successful as guide dogs if
> they're
> formal guide training is longer than the standard 4 months. This is
> because
> these dogs mature around age 2, not 1.5 or 1.75 years, which is when many
> schools seem to be pushing dogs through. Here's the link to the abstract.
> http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1558787806000256  ..."
>>
>> I think this is very interesting. I know that SRF:s
>> Ledarhundsverksamhet
> (Guide Dogs Sweden) took the decision that the dogs needed to be between
> the
> age of 2 and 3 years when they did the qualifying test some years ago. The
> dogs here generally get around seven months of training by a guide dog
> trainer. Anyhow, they think this has led to more stable partnerships; I've
> any statestics tough.
>>
>> Kind regards,
>> Leye-Shprintse and Hera <3
>>
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>
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-- 
Raven

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