[nagdu] Easing into guide work WAS Age of Qualifying Guide Dogs

Thu Feb 20 18:03:12 UTC 2014

Jenny and I did all of our training in our local area.  This means we frequented all of the places I usually would go - the mall I prefer to shop at, going to work, coffee shops, the grocery store, etc.  I was crazy/broke enough to work in the evenings while training with her in the mornings.  Thankfully she was more than happy to just sleep on her doggie bed in her "I'm training" jacket while I worked at a desk.  We took little walks to the bus while I used my cane... it got her familiar with the area also.  We took a full 36 hours off, doing NOTHING, once training was done!

I am a pretty here, there and everywhere person, and Jenny is a little ball of energy.  Thankfully I didn't start playing goalball until more than a month after graduation... that has been a challenge, let me tell you!

Daryl and Jenny (who has moved off her doggie bed and is curled up under Daryl's desk at her feet)
----- Original Message -----
From: Raven Tolliver <ravend729 at gmail.com>
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thu, 20 Feb 2014 10:49:53 -0700 (MST)
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Age of Qualifying Guide Dogs

Julie,
I like your idea of easing a dog into fulltime work. I think it's an
unconventional, but rather practical and sensible concept. Many guide
dogs, no matter the age, are not afforded that opportunity. They just
go from working for an hour or 2 each day to working fulltime and I'm
sure that contributes to some of the stress on both dog and handler.
I know of a New Yorker who got a dog. They seemed well-match. This guy
was constantly on the go, and he received an adorable ball of energy.
After he got home, I guess he asked way too much of his dog. It seemed
that he wanted to resume the fast-paced, here there and everywhere
lifestyle he'd had before without taking time and consideration to
acclimate his dog to his home, familiar routes, lifestyle, and
routine. The dog stressed out and started ignoring cues while working.
The dog was returned, and fortunately placed with someone else a
couple months later. But it was a great lesson to this guy to ease his
dog into such a rigorous work routine.
Being an energetic dog on the go is fine, but being an energetic dog
on the go, and working is a different thing, and it wears on a dog.
And it's a lot to expect so immediately for some dogs.

On 2/20/14, Daryl Marie <crazymusician at shaw.ca> wrote:
> Hi, Julie,
>
> That's great!  I think it is an itneresting concept!  *smiles*  Good on ya!
>
> Daryl
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Julie J. <julielj at neb.rr.com>
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thu, 20 Feb 2014 09:51:12 -0700 (MST)
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Age of Qualifying Guide Dogs
>
> Yes, you have it exactly right!  Monty is my current guide, who I owner
> trained.  I also owner trained my previous guides.  I have never attended a
> program.  My next guide, Jetta, I plan on picking up from the trainer this
> fall.  when exactly depends on when she is ready, when I can find a driver
> and the weather.  I'm in Nebraska and the trainer is in Wisconsin.
>
> Jetta is a Doberman.  I purchased her from a breeder here in Nebraska.  I
> brought her home when she was 8 weeks old.  she stayed with me for about 10
> days.  she was an adorable puppy!  She has been with the trainer ever since.
> Meghan Whalen is the trainer.  she is also a member of this list.  She is
> blind and has owner trained one guide dog, raised several puppies, and has
> trained several guide/service dogs.
>
> Owner training isn't particularly difficult, but it is incredibly time
> consuming.  It requires a lot of planning and a daily commitment to doing
> the work.  I'm at a place in my life where I have other things I'd rather be
> doing, so I went with a trainer this time.  I'm very picky about what I want
> in a guide and none of the current programs offer exactly what I want.  My
> list of must have's includes full ownership with no strings attached, my
> breed of choice, clicker training, use of food rewards and  premium foods.
> I'm also very excited about picking out my own puppy, getting updates
> throughout the process, deciding what and how I want my dog trained, off
> leash manners, knowing the puppy raiser/trainer, minimal moves between
> homes, no kennel environment and the ability to see my puppy if I choose.
>
> I'm about 6 months into the process.  So far I'm very, extremely pleased.
> I do miss Jetta and wish I lived closer so I could visit more often, but I
> have no desire to actually do the training myself.  It's been five years
> since I trained Monty, but I still vividly remember how much work it is.
> This has been the perfect solution for me.
>
> Julie
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Daryl Marie
> Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 10:28 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Age of Qualifying Guide Dogs
>
> Julie, I've come late to the party... can you explain a little about what
> you are doing?  Looks like, from what I have read, Monty was an
> owner-trained guide dog and Jetta is being trained by a trainer somewhere? I
> am curious.
>
> Daryl
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Julie J. <julielj at neb.rr.com>
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thu, 20 Feb 2014 09:17:07 -0700 (MST)
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Age of Qualifying Guide Dogs
>
> This topic has been very interesting to me.  My current plan is that Jetta
> will come back to me at about 16 months old.  she will be fully trained at
> that point.   I have always planned to work both Jetta and Monty part time,
> switching back and forth, so Jetta can ease into guiding and Monty can ease
> into retirement.  We'll see how that works out.
>
> Jetta is 8 months old right now and she doesn't have any of the bad manners
> described of young dogs.  She doesn't resource guard, mouth people, pull on
> leash or chew up stuff.  Perhaps she hasn't come into true adolescence yet
> and she'll go crazy doing all sorts of bad stuff, but I kind of doubt it.
> I'm sure she will do some of the testing and asserting her ideas in the next
> few months.  Honestly though, I am pretty confident that she'll be ready at
> a young age.  She has never been a crazy, out of control puppy and I don't
> see why that won't continue.
>
> I do realize that no matter how nice her behavior and manners are, there is
> physical and mental development that doesn't occur until later.  I'll need
> to be mindful of that and not ask her to do more than she can.
>
> Perhaps being an owner trainer and now having Jetta privately trained is a
> different situation from the discussion here.  I don't know.  All of my dogs
> have eased into the role of guiding.  There has not been an abrupt change
> from being trained to being totally responsible for guiding.  I have done
> that transition gradually.  I let the dog guide when he can and train in
> situations he isn't ready to navigate.  It sounds complicated, but really it
> doesn't require much thought.  You know what your dog can do and what he
> can't.
>
> Jetta will be different, of course.  Still I'm used to working young dogs in
> limited situations and letting them get their sea legs, so to speak.
> Perhaps if I lived in a big city or traveled a ton or had other more high
> intensity lifestyle, then an older dog would be the way to go.  I don't
> know.
>
> Julie
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Raven Tolliver
> Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 9:58 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Age of Qualifying Guide Dogs
>
> 15 months? Whoa! That is playing with fire.
> When I made the assembly line reference, I was referring to the way
> guide dogs themselves are evaluated and trained at certain schools. It
> is more an assembly line for the dogs than the people. The matching
> process at any place better be as meticulous as possible. I would
> expect that from the worst schools.
> I guess I am very sensitive to the age issue because I deal with
> adolescent and adult dogs of multiple breeds on a regular basis. I've
> seen firsthand the difference 6 months can make.
> I am also passionate about this issue, because I am hearing what I
> call horror stories about these young dogs being sent home with
> people. Resource guarding, mouthiness, unnecessary retrieving,
> horrible leash manners, and flat out refusal to work some days and
> then eagerness to work others. Schools telling people their dogs will
> "grow out of it." Well, I sure hope so! It's just too bad they
> couldn't wait till the dog was well-refined before they handed it
> over.
> I'm not sure how new or traditional this is, schools putting out dogs
> so young, but I know that in other countries, schools don't dream of
> issuing adolescent dogs, and other assistance dog programs don't
> either, and for a multitude of good reasons. I think the economy might
> have something to do with this. Just maybe? The earlier you put dogs
> out, the less money you have to spend providing for them, especially
> when you have a large breeding stock, number of litters or gdits on
> the docket.
> This is not to bash any school or to undermine the relationship or
> stability of any of the little ones working out there. However, the
> differences in age are quiet noticeable, and the consensus is out.
> Some programs and trainers choose to ignore that, and they are doing a
> number of dogs and handlers a great disservice. Not everyone, but a
> great number, for sure.
>
> On 2/20/14, Daryl Marie <crazymusician at shaw.ca> wrote:
>> oh, Jenny is a wiggler!  My husband has nicknamed her "wiggles".  I don't
>> mind so much if she's out of harness and old friends come and say hi.  But
>> when she meets new people, I always remind her "manners" and it seems to
>> calm her down. it's cute!
>>
>> Daryl
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Deanna Lewis <DLewis at clovernook.org>
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thu, 20 Feb 2014 07:37:09 -0700 (MST)
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Age of Qualifying Guide Dogs
>>
>> Pascal was 19 months old when I received him in 2009, and he was one of
>> the
>> youngest dogs in our class. Most of the other dogs were about 22 months
>> old.
>> He has always been very mature, and very well behaved. He didn't want to
>> lie
>> down on floors or get underneath tables, for the first few months. And, he
>> seemed to mature at lot once he hit 3 years old. He has never been one of
>> those wiggly labs, you know the ones who get so excited their whole body
>> wiggles! LOL
>> One of my co-workers just got a dog that is only 15 months old. She is
>> very
>> puppy like!
>> Deanna and Pascal
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sherry Gomes
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2014 5:37 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Age of Qualifying Guide Dogs
>>
>> I think the same could apply to labs. My current guide is a reissue, so
>> she
>> was three when we trained together. what a difference! I don't want my
>> next
>> guide to be 18 months old as so many are when graduating. Two years old is
>> the youngest I'd want and I'd jump to have a reissue again. Though having
>> said that, Bianca, who was about 2 when we trained and is 13 now is still
>> young at heart and full of spirit and a sort of happy puppy mentality.
>> Olga,
>> my working guide is 8 and has a very old soul. I'm sure she was always
>> that
>> way even when she was a baby.
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tami Jarvis
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2014 12:01 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Age of Qualifying Guide Dogs
>>
>> Ooh! Research! Poodles are said to mature later, both physically and
>> mentally, and I did find that with mine. She really came into her own
>> between 3 and 4. Then again, I've heard of a few people getting really
>> young
>> poodles that seem to work out well. Okay. Off to read. /smile/
>>
>> Tami
>>
>> On 02/19/2014 10:22 AM, "Leye-Shprintse Öberg" wrote:
>>> BS"D
>>>
>>> Raven,
>>>
>>> * "... I did some research and found a study on Seeing Eye dogs that
>> concluded that goldens and GSds are more successful as guide dogs if
>> they're
>> formal guide training is longer than the standard 4 months. This is
>> because
>> these dogs mature around age 2, not 1.5 or 1.75 years, which is when many
>> schools seem to be pushing dogs through. Here's the link to the abstract.
>> http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1558787806000256  ..."
>>>
>>> I think this is very interesting. I know that SRF:s
>>> Ledarhundsverksamhet
>> (Guide Dogs Sweden) took the decision that the dogs needed to be between
>> the
>> age of 2 and 3 years when they did the qualifying test some years ago. The
>> dogs here generally get around seven months of training by a guide dog
>> trainer. Anyhow, they think this has led to more stable partnerships; I've
>> any statestics tough.
>>>
>>> Kind regards,
>>> Leye-Shprintse and Hera <3
>>>
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>>
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>
>
> --
> Raven
>
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-- 
Raven

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