[nagdu] Blind Trainers was RE: Private trainers

sheila sleigland at bresnan.net
Fri Feb 21 19:49:55 UTC 2014


hi when I got my first dog I thought traffic was so far away that I was 
hesenant to make decisions as to street crossings and at least part of 
the problem was I didn't realize how wide the sidewalks were and also I 
misjudged how much movement the harness handle should have and they 
thought it was just the way that I walked instead of correcting my 
mistake they just let it go until I made mention of it.
On 2/21/2014 7:59 AM, Tracy Carcione wrote:
> Hi Sheila.
> I too have had the feeling that some trainers don't consider what 
> works best for a totally blind handler.  I have a theory that schools 
> used to train as if the dog would be used by a totally blind person, 
> but now they often train as if the dog will be used by a person who 
> can see a little, and it's not the same.  Of course, this is only a 
> theory.  But my last trainer seemed to think I should know about 
> things I couldn't know about, like upcoming bushes, until I complained 
> about it.
>
> GDB did try a blind trainer for a bit, but it didn't seem to work 
> out.  I think she's on this list, or was.
> Tracy
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "sheila" <sleigland at bresnan.net>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 11:43 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Private Trainers was RE: Age of Qualifying Guide 
> Dogs
>
>
> interesting post. I don't know if any of the schools use blind folks to
> train with the dogs. My thought is that I have found that sometimes
> trainers forget what totally blind folks might miss compared with folks
> with some usable vision.
> On 2/20/2014 9:27 PM, Nicole Torcolini wrote:
>> Okay, I promise that this is the last one tonight. I know, I need to not
>> forgetting to include stuff. The other thing that I was going to say 
>> is that
>> I think that it is better that someone who is blind is training the dog
>> instead of someone who is sighted. This is for several reasons. I truly
>> believe that, no matter how much sighted people try to learn what it 
>> is like
>> to blind, unless they spend a very long time under blind fold, there 
>> will
>> always be certain things that they don't understand, and some of these
>> things might affect how they think a dog should be trained to guide. 
>> Also, I
>> have heard a theory that dogs can tell when a person is blind. They 
>> think
>> that the training process is a game; however, once they get paired with
>> their blind handler, they realize that it is not a game, that they 
>> actually
>> are responsible for the people, and it is just too much for them. .
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nicole 
>> Torcolini
>> Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 8:18 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Subject: [nagdu] Private Trainers was RE: Age of Qualifying Guide Dogs
>>
>> Too bad that there are not more private trainers, or that at least more
>> schools do things the way that private trainers do. JMHO, some of the
>> schools possibly could use a little better food. The whole
>> stay-in-the-kennel during training thing also is not that great. The 
>> labs
>> seem to handle it fine, but they take a little bit to get back on 
>> track with
>> the whole going on command, and they can develop some undesirable 
>> behaviors
>> when staying in the kennel.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie J.
>> Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 8:51 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Age of Qualifying Guide Dogs
>>
>> Yes, you have it exactly right!  Monty is my current guide, who I owner
>> trained.  I also owner trained my previous guides.  I have never 
>> attended a
>> program.  My next guide, Jetta, I plan on picking up from the trainer 
>> this
>> fall.  when exactly depends on when she is ready, when I can find a 
>> driver
>> and the weather.  I'm in Nebraska and the trainer is in Wisconsin.
>>
>> Jetta is a Doberman.  I purchased her from a breeder here in 
>> Nebraska.  I
>> brought her home when she was 8 weeks old.  she stayed with me for 
>> about 10
>> days.  she was an adorable puppy!  She has been with the trainer ever 
>> since.
>>
>> Meghan Whalen is the trainer.  she is also a member of this list.  
>> She is
>> blind and has owner trained one guide dog, raised several puppies, 
>> and has
>> trained several guide/service dogs.
>>
>> Owner training isn't particularly difficult, but it is incredibly time
>> consuming.  It requires a lot of planning and a daily commitment to 
>> doing
>> the work.  I'm at a place in my life where I have other things I'd 
>> rather be
>> doing, so I went with a trainer this time.  I'm very picky about what 
>> I want
>> in a guide and none of the current programs offer exactly what I 
>> want.  My
>> list of must have's includes full ownership with no strings attached, my
>> breed of choice, clicker training, use of food rewards and premium 
>> foods.
>> I'm also very excited about picking out my own puppy, getting updates
>> throughout the process, deciding what and how I want my dog trained, off
>> leash manners, knowing the puppy raiser/trainer, minimal moves between
>> homes, no kennel environment and the ability to see my puppy if I 
>> choose.
>>
>> I'm about 6 months into the process.  So far I'm very, extremely 
>> pleased.
>> I do miss Jetta and wish I lived closer so I could visit more often, 
>> but I
>> have no desire to actually do the training myself.  It's been five years
>> since I trained Monty, but I still vividly remember how much work it is.
>> This has been the perfect solution for me.
>>
>> Julie
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Daryl Marie
>> Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 10:28 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Age of Qualifying Guide Dogs
>>
>> Julie, I've come late to the party... can you explain a little about 
>> what
>> you are doing?  Looks like, from what I have read, Monty was an
>> owner-trained guide dog and Jetta is being trained by a trainer 
>> somewhere? I
>> am curious.
>>
>> Daryl
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Julie J. <julielj at neb.rr.com>
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thu, 20 Feb 2014 09:17:07 -0700 (MST)
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Age of Qualifying Guide Dogs
>>
>> This topic has been very interesting to me.  My current plan is that 
>> Jetta
>> will come back to me at about 16 months old.  she will be fully 
>> trained at
>> that point.   I have always planned to work both Jetta and Monty part 
>> time,
>> switching back and forth, so Jetta can ease into guiding and Monty 
>> can ease
>> into retirement.  We'll see how that works out.
>>
>> Jetta is 8 months old right now and she doesn't have any of the bad 
>> manners
>> described of young dogs.  She doesn't resource guard, mouth people, 
>> pull on
>> leash or chew up stuff.  Perhaps she hasn't come into true 
>> adolescence yet
>> and she'll go crazy doing all sorts of bad stuff, but I kind of doubt 
>> it.
>> I'm sure she will do some of the testing and asserting her ideas in 
>> the next
>> few months.  Honestly though, I am pretty confident that she'll be 
>> ready at
>> a young age.  She has never been a crazy, out of control puppy and I 
>> don't
>> see why that won't continue.
>>
>> I do realize that no matter how nice her behavior and manners are, 
>> there is
>> physical and mental development that doesn't occur until later. I'll 
>> need
>> to be mindful of that and not ask her to do more than she can.
>>
>> Perhaps being an owner trainer and now having Jetta privately trained 
>> is a
>> different situation from the discussion here.  I don't know. All of 
>> my dogs
>> have eased into the role of guiding.  There has not been an abrupt 
>> change
>> from being trained to being totally responsible for guiding.  I have 
>> done
>> that transition gradually.  I let the dog guide when he can and train in
>> situations he isn't ready to navigate.  It sounds complicated, but 
>> really it
>> doesn't require much thought.  You know what your dog can do and what he
>> can't.
>>
>> Jetta will be different, of course.  Still I'm used to working young 
>> dogs in
>> limited situations and letting them get their sea legs, so to speak.
>> Perhaps if I lived in a big city or traveled a ton or had other more 
>> high
>> intensity lifestyle, then an older dog would be the way to go. I don't
>> know.
>>
>> Julie
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Raven Tolliver
>> Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 9:58 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Age of Qualifying Guide Dogs
>>
>> 15 months? Whoa! That is playing with fire.
>> When I made the assembly line reference, I was referring to the way 
>> guide
>> dogs themselves are evaluated and trained at certain schools. It is 
>> more an
>> assembly line for the dogs than the people. The matching process at any
>> place better be as meticulous as possible. I would expect that from the
>> worst schools.
>> I guess I am very sensitive to the age issue because I deal with 
>> adolescent
>> and adult dogs of multiple breeds on a regular basis. I've seen 
>> firsthand
>> the difference 6 months can make.
>> I am also passionate about this issue, because I am hearing what I call
>> horror stories about these young dogs being sent home with people. 
>> Resource
>> guarding, mouthiness, unnecessary retrieving, horrible leash manners, 
>> and
>> flat out refusal to work some days and then eagerness to work others.
>> Schools telling people their dogs will "grow out of it." Well, I sure 
>> hope
>> so! It's just too bad they couldn't wait till the dog was well-refined
>> before they handed it over.
>> I'm not sure how new or traditional this is, schools putting out dogs so
>> young, but I know that in other countries, schools don't dream of 
>> issuing
>> adolescent dogs, and other assistance dog programs don't either, and 
>> for a
>> multitude of good reasons. I think the economy might have something 
>> to do
>> with this. Just maybe? The earlier you put dogs out, the less money 
>> you have
>> to spend providing for them, especially when you have a large breeding
>> stock, number of litters or gdits on the docket.
>> This is not to bash any school or to undermine the relationship or 
>> stability
>> of any of the little ones working out there. However, the differences 
>> in age
>> are quiet noticeable, and the consensus is out.
>> Some programs and trainers choose to ignore that, and they are doing a
>> number of dogs and handlers a great disservice. Not everyone, but a 
>> great
>> number, for sure.
>>
>> On 2/20/14, Daryl Marie <crazymusician at shaw.ca> wrote:
>>> oh, Jenny is a wiggler!  My husband has nicknamed her "wiggles".  I
>>> don't mind so much if she's out of harness and old friends come and
>>> say hi.  But when she meets new people, I always remind her "manners"
>>> and it seems to calm her down. it's cute!
>>>
>>> Daryl
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Deanna Lewis <DLewis at clovernook.org>
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Thu, 20 Feb 2014 07:37:09 -0700 (MST)
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Age of Qualifying Guide Dogs
>>>
>>> Pascal was 19 months old when I received him in 2009, and he was one
>>> of the youngest dogs in our class. Most of the other dogs were about
>>> 22 months old.
>>> He has always been very mature, and very well behaved. He didn't want
>>> to lie down on floors or get underneath tables, for the first few
>>> months. And, he seemed to mature at lot once he hit 3 years old. He
>>> has never been one of those wiggly labs, you know the ones who get so
>>> excited their whole body wiggles! LOL One of my co-workers just got a
>>> dog that is only 15 months old. She is very puppy like!
>>> Deanna and Pascal
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sherry
>>> Gomes
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2014 5:37 PM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Age of Qualifying Guide Dogs
>>>
>>> I think the same could apply to labs. My current guide is a reissue,
>>> so she was three when we trained together. what a difference! I don't
>>> want my next guide to be 18 months old as so many are when graduating.
>>> Two years old is the youngest I'd want and I'd jump to have a reissue
>>> again. Though having said that, Bianca, who was about 2 when we
>>> trained and is 13 now is still young at heart and full of spirit and a
>>> sort of happy puppy mentality.
>>> Olga,
>>> my working guide is 8 and has a very old soul. I'm sure she was always
>>> that way even when she was a baby.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tami Jarvis
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2014 12:01 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Age of Qualifying Guide Dogs
>>>
>>> Ooh! Research! Poodles are said to mature later, both physically and
>>> mentally, and I did find that with mine. She really came into her own
>>> between 3 and 4. Then again, I've heard of a few people getting really
>>> young poodles that seem to work out well. Okay. Off to read. /smile/
>>>
>>> Tami
>>>
>>> On 02/19/2014 10:22 AM, "Leye-Shprintse Öberg" wrote:
>>>> BS"D
>>>>
>>>> Raven,
>>>>
>>>> * "... I did some research and found a study on Seeing Eye dogs that
>>> concluded that goldens and GSds are more successful as guide dogs if
>>> they're formal guide training is longer than the standard 4 months.
>>> This is because these dogs mature around age 2, not 1.5 or 1.75 years,
>>> which is when many schools seem to be pushing dogs through. Here's the
>>> link to the abstract.
>>> http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1558787806000256 ..."
>>>> I think this is very interesting. I know that SRF:s
>>>> Ledarhundsverksamhet
>>> (Guide Dogs Sweden) took the decision that the dogs needed to be
>>> between the age of 2 and 3 years when they did the qualifying test
>>> some years ago. The dogs here generally get around seven months of
>>> training by a guide dog trainer. Anyhow, they think this has led to
>>> more stable partnerships; I've any statestics tough.
>>>> Kind regards,
>>>> Leye-Shprintse and Hera <3
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> om
>>>>
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>>
>> -- 
>> Raven
>>
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