[nagdu] Blind Trainers was RE: Private trainers

Fri Feb 21 22:24:48 UTC 2014

Tracy,
That's very interesting.
I know at GEB, my instructor would make comments about my dog's body
language if he stopped for an obstacle or his position if he was
distracted. Or she would ask, "Do you know why we stopped?" "What is
your dog doing?" "don't you feel a difference in the harness?" or
"Does he normally pull so hard like that?" It helped acclimate me to
his body language very quickly, and helped me learned to tell when my
dog is stopping for an obstacle, sniffing a person, focusing on a dog
up ahead, or looking around at something.

On 2/21/14, sheila <sleigland at bresnan.net> wrote:
> hi when I got my first dog I thought traffic was so far away that I was
> hesenant to make decisions as to street crossings and at least part of
> the problem was I didn't realize how wide the sidewalks were and also I
> misjudged how much movement the harness handle should have and they
> thought it was just the way that I walked instead of correcting my
> mistake they just let it go until I made mention of it.
> On 2/21/2014 7:59 AM, Tracy Carcione wrote:
>> Hi Sheila.
>> I too have had the feeling that some trainers don't consider what
>> works best for a totally blind handler.  I have a theory that schools
>> used to train as if the dog would be used by a totally blind person,
>> but now they often train as if the dog will be used by a person who
>> can see a little, and it's not the same.  Of course, this is only a
>> theory.  But my last trainer seemed to think I should know about
>> things I couldn't know about, like upcoming bushes, until I complained
>> about it.
>>
>> GDB did try a blind trainer for a bit, but it didn't seem to work
>> out.  I think she's on this list, or was.
>> Tracy
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "sheila" <sleigland at bresnan.net>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 11:43 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Private Trainers was RE: Age of Qualifying Guide
>> Dogs
>>
>>
>> interesting post. I don't know if any of the schools use blind folks to
>> train with the dogs. My thought is that I have found that sometimes
>> trainers forget what totally blind folks might miss compared with folks
>> with some usable vision.
>> On 2/20/2014 9:27 PM, Nicole Torcolini wrote:
>>> Okay, I promise that this is the last one tonight. I know, I need to not
>>> forgetting to include stuff. The other thing that I was going to say
>>> is that
>>> I think that it is better that someone who is blind is training the dog
>>> instead of someone who is sighted. This is for several reasons. I truly
>>> believe that, no matter how much sighted people try to learn what it
>>> is like
>>> to blind, unless they spend a very long time under blind fold, there
>>> will
>>> always be certain things that they don't understand, and some of these
>>> things might affect how they think a dog should be trained to guide.
>>> Also, I
>>> have heard a theory that dogs can tell when a person is blind. They
>>> think
>>> that the training process is a game; however, once they get paired with
>>> their blind handler, they realize that it is not a game, that they
>>> actually
>>> are responsible for the people, and it is just too much for them. .
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nicole
>>> Torcolini
>>> Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 8:18 PM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> Subject: [nagdu] Private Trainers was RE: Age of Qualifying Guide Dogs
>>>
>>> Too bad that there are not more private trainers, or that at least more
>>> schools do things the way that private trainers do. JMHO, some of the
>>> schools possibly could use a little better food. The whole
>>> stay-in-the-kennel during training thing also is not that great. The
>>> labs
>>> seem to handle it fine, but they take a little bit to get back on
>>> track with
>>> the whole going on command, and they can develop some undesirable
>>> behaviors
>>> when staying in the kennel.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie J.
>>> Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 8:51 AM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Age of Qualifying Guide Dogs
>>>
>>> Yes, you have it exactly right!  Monty is my current guide, who I owner
>>> trained.  I also owner trained my previous guides.  I have never
>>> attended a
>>> program.  My next guide, Jetta, I plan on picking up from the trainer
>>> this
>>> fall.  when exactly depends on when she is ready, when I can find a
>>> driver
>>> and the weather.  I'm in Nebraska and the trainer is in Wisconsin.
>>>
>>> Jetta is a Doberman.  I purchased her from a breeder here in
>>> Nebraska.  I
>>> brought her home when she was 8 weeks old.  she stayed with me for
>>> about 10
>>> days.  she was an adorable puppy!  She has been with the trainer ever
>>> since.
>>>
>>> Meghan Whalen is the trainer.  she is also a member of this list.
>>> She is
>>> blind and has owner trained one guide dog, raised several puppies,
>>> and has
>>> trained several guide/service dogs.
>>>
>>> Owner training isn't particularly difficult, but it is incredibly time
>>> consuming.  It requires a lot of planning and a daily commitment to
>>> doing
>>> the work.  I'm at a place in my life where I have other things I'd
>>> rather be
>>> doing, so I went with a trainer this time.  I'm very picky about what
>>> I want
>>> in a guide and none of the current programs offer exactly what I
>>> want.  My
>>> list of must have's includes full ownership with no strings attached, my
>>> breed of choice, clicker training, use of food rewards and premium
>>> foods.
>>> I'm also very excited about picking out my own puppy, getting updates
>>> throughout the process, deciding what and how I want my dog trained, off
>>> leash manners, knowing the puppy raiser/trainer, minimal moves between
>>> homes, no kennel environment and the ability to see my puppy if I
>>> choose.
>>>
>>> I'm about 6 months into the process.  So far I'm very, extremely
>>> pleased.
>>> I do miss Jetta and wish I lived closer so I could visit more often,
>>> but I
>>> have no desire to actually do the training myself.  It's been five years
>>> since I trained Monty, but I still vividly remember how much work it is.
>>> This has been the perfect solution for me.
>>>
>>> Julie
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Daryl Marie
>>> Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 10:28 AM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Age of Qualifying Guide Dogs
>>>
>>> Julie, I've come late to the party... can you explain a little about
>>> what
>>> you are doing?  Looks like, from what I have read, Monty was an
>>> owner-trained guide dog and Jetta is being trained by a trainer
>>> somewhere? I
>>> am curious.
>>>
>>> Daryl
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Julie J. <julielj at neb.rr.com>
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Thu, 20 Feb 2014 09:17:07 -0700 (MST)
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Age of Qualifying Guide Dogs
>>>
>>> This topic has been very interesting to me.  My current plan is that
>>> Jetta
>>> will come back to me at about 16 months old.  she will be fully
>>> trained at
>>> that point.   I have always planned to work both Jetta and Monty part
>>> time,
>>> switching back and forth, so Jetta can ease into guiding and Monty
>>> can ease
>>> into retirement.  We'll see how that works out.
>>>
>>> Jetta is 8 months old right now and she doesn't have any of the bad
>>> manners
>>> described of young dogs.  She doesn't resource guard, mouth people,
>>> pull on
>>> leash or chew up stuff.  Perhaps she hasn't come into true
>>> adolescence yet
>>> and she'll go crazy doing all sorts of bad stuff, but I kind of doubt
>>> it.
>>> I'm sure she will do some of the testing and asserting her ideas in
>>> the next
>>> few months.  Honestly though, I am pretty confident that she'll be
>>> ready at
>>> a young age.  She has never been a crazy, out of control puppy and I
>>> don't
>>> see why that won't continue.
>>>
>>> I do realize that no matter how nice her behavior and manners are,
>>> there is
>>> physical and mental development that doesn't occur until later. I'll
>>> need
>>> to be mindful of that and not ask her to do more than she can.
>>>
>>> Perhaps being an owner trainer and now having Jetta privately trained
>>> is a
>>> different situation from the discussion here.  I don't know. All of
>>> my dogs
>>> have eased into the role of guiding.  There has not been an abrupt
>>> change
>>> from being trained to being totally responsible for guiding.  I have
>>> done
>>> that transition gradually.  I let the dog guide when he can and train in
>>> situations he isn't ready to navigate.  It sounds complicated, but
>>> really it
>>> doesn't require much thought.  You know what your dog can do and what he
>>> can't.
>>>
>>> Jetta will be different, of course.  Still I'm used to working young
>>> dogs in
>>> limited situations and letting them get their sea legs, so to speak.
>>> Perhaps if I lived in a big city or traveled a ton or had other more
>>> high
>>> intensity lifestyle, then an older dog would be the way to go. I don't
>>> know.
>>>
>>> Julie
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Raven Tolliver
>>> Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 9:58 AM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Age of Qualifying Guide Dogs
>>>
>>> 15 months? Whoa! That is playing with fire.
>>> When I made the assembly line reference, I was referring to the way
>>> guide
>>> dogs themselves are evaluated and trained at certain schools. It is
>>> more an
>>> assembly line for the dogs than the people. The matching process at any
>>> place better be as meticulous as possible. I would expect that from the
>>> worst schools.
>>> I guess I am very sensitive to the age issue because I deal with
>>> adolescent
>>> and adult dogs of multiple breeds on a regular basis. I've seen
>>> firsthand
>>> the difference 6 months can make.
>>> I am also passionate about this issue, because I am hearing what I call
>>> horror stories about these young dogs being sent home with people.
>>> Resource
>>> guarding, mouthiness, unnecessary retrieving, horrible leash manners,
>>> and
>>> flat out refusal to work some days and then eagerness to work others.
>>> Schools telling people their dogs will "grow out of it." Well, I sure
>>> hope
>>> so! It's just too bad they couldn't wait till the dog was well-refined
>>> before they handed it over.
>>> I'm not sure how new or traditional this is, schools putting out dogs so
>>> young, but I know that in other countries, schools don't dream of
>>> issuing
>>> adolescent dogs, and other assistance dog programs don't either, and
>>> for a
>>> multitude of good reasons. I think the economy might have something
>>> to do
>>> with this. Just maybe? The earlier you put dogs out, the less money
>>> you have
>>> to spend providing for them, especially when you have a large breeding
>>> stock, number of litters or gdits on the docket.
>>> This is not to bash any school or to undermine the relationship or
>>> stability
>>> of any of the little ones working out there. However, the differences
>>> in age
>>> are quiet noticeable, and the consensus is out.
>>> Some programs and trainers choose to ignore that, and they are doing a
>>> number of dogs and handlers a great disservice. Not everyone, but a
>>> great
>>> number, for sure.
>>>
>>> On 2/20/14, Daryl Marie <crazymusician at shaw.ca> wrote:
>>>> oh, Jenny is a wiggler!  My husband has nicknamed her "wiggles".  I
>>>> don't mind so much if she's out of harness and old friends come and
>>>> say hi.  But when she meets new people, I always remind her "manners"
>>>> and it seems to calm her down. it's cute!
>>>>
>>>> Daryl
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: Deanna Lewis <DLewis at clovernook.org>
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Thu, 20 Feb 2014 07:37:09 -0700 (MST)
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Age of Qualifying Guide Dogs
>>>>
>>>> Pascal was 19 months old when I received him in 2009, and he was one
>>>> of the youngest dogs in our class. Most of the other dogs were about
>>>> 22 months old.
>>>> He has always been very mature, and very well behaved. He didn't want
>>>> to lie down on floors or get underneath tables, for the first few
>>>> months. And, he seemed to mature at lot once he hit 3 years old. He
>>>> has never been one of those wiggly labs, you know the ones who get so
>>>> excited their whole body wiggles! LOL One of my co-workers just got a
>>>> dog that is only 15 months old. She is very puppy like!
>>>> Deanna and Pascal
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sherry
>>>> Gomes
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2014 5:37 PM
>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Age of Qualifying Guide Dogs
>>>>
>>>> I think the same could apply to labs. My current guide is a reissue,
>>>> so she was three when we trained together. what a difference! I don't
>>>> want my next guide to be 18 months old as so many are when graduating.
>>>> Two years old is the youngest I'd want and I'd jump to have a reissue
>>>> again. Though having said that, Bianca, who was about 2 when we
>>>> trained and is 13 now is still young at heart and full of spirit and a
>>>> sort of happy puppy mentality.
>>>> Olga,
>>>> my working guide is 8 and has a very old soul. I'm sure she was always
>>>> that way even when she was a baby.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tami Jarvis
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2014 12:01 PM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Age of Qualifying Guide Dogs
>>>>
>>>> Ooh! Research! Poodles are said to mature later, both physically and
>>>> mentally, and I did find that with mine. She really came into her own
>>>> between 3 and 4. Then again, I've heard of a few people getting really
>>>> young poodles that seem to work out well. Okay. Off to read. /smile/
>>>>
>>>> Tami
>>>>
>>>> On 02/19/2014 10:22 AM, "Leye-Shprintse Öberg" wrote:
>>>>> BS"D
>>>>>
>>>>> Raven,
>>>>>
>>>>> * "... I did some research and found a study on Seeing Eye dogs that
>>>> concluded that goldens and GSds are more successful as guide dogs if
>>>> they're formal guide training is longer than the standard 4 months.
>>>> This is because these dogs mature around age 2, not 1.5 or 1.75 years,
>>>> which is when many schools seem to be pushing dogs through. Here's the
>>>> link to the abstract.
>>>> http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1558787806000256 ..."
>>>>> I think this is very interesting. I know that SRF:s
>>>>> Ledarhundsverksamhet
>>>> (Guide Dogs Sweden) took the decision that the dogs needed to be
>>>> between the age of 2 and 3 years when they did the qualifying test
>>>> some years ago. The dogs here generally get around seven months of
>>>> training by a guide dog trainer. Anyhow, they think this has led to
>>>> more stable partnerships; I've any statestics tough.
>>>>> Kind regards,
>>>>> Leye-Shprintse and Hera <3
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/tami%40poodlemutt.
>>>>> c
>>>>> om
>>>>>
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>>>
>>> --
>>> Raven
>>>
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-- 
Raven