[nagdu] Miniature Guide Horses WAS Cincinnati Family with miniature horse service animal, sues city.

Sat Feb 22 22:20:38 UTC 2014

Dear Ann,
	Two questions I am not sure I have ever seen answers for, though I'm
sure you have.
	First, what does Panda wear on her feet?  The ones I have heard
about seem to wear human shoes, but I know the hoof is shaped differently?
	Second, under what circumstances, all else being equal, do you
believe might not be suitable for a miniature horse guide?
	Oops; I have another one, what does her harness look like?
	Boy; i  wish I live closer; I'd love to see the two of you working
together.
	I would be lying if I said I didn't wish our dog relationships
lasted longer, especially when you have such a fantastic dog, as I do now.
	Thank you very much for being so open and explaining things so well.
Darla & Huggable Huck

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ann Edie
Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2014 12:47 AM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Miniature Guide Horses WAS Cincinnati Family with
miniature horse service animal, sues city.

Hi, Daryl and Everyone,

You asked how or why I switched from using guide dogs to working with a
miniature horse guide.  Well, my decision to work with a miniature horse
guide was prompted by many experiences and philosophical factors.

First of all, perhaps, was my experience with guide dogs.  After working for
9 years with my first, wonderful chocolate Labrador guide dog, I experienced
2 heart-breaking attempted partnerships with one male and one female German
shepherd guide.  I decided that, even in the case of the very successful
guide dog, the working lifespan of dogs is painfully short, and the
disruption during the period of the decline of the working guide, the loss
of that relationship, the time of transition to a new dog guide, and the
period of adjustment and team building with the new dog guide, were just too
stressful for me physically, emotionally and in terms of time commitment for
me to want to repeat the process every few years.  And it is even harder if
you throw in the occasional mismatch or match with a dog who decides he/she
really isn't prepared to work full time as a guide.

Second, I am, and have always been, a horse lover.  At the time I got my
miniature horse, I already owned 3 riding horses and was very involved in
their care and training.  I knew that horses are intelligent enough to do
guide work and that many of them have the temperament to do the work.  I
also knew that horses do look upon the humans with whom they have close
relationships as members of their bands (families), and do take on the roles
of companion and guide/protector as needed.  My own Arabian horse, Magnat,
acted as my guide both when I was riding him and when I was walking with
him.  I had trained him to stop at changes of footing and elevation and
before going through doorways or gateways so that I could orient myself and
make sure the passage was clear.  He was also a wonderful retriever who
would not only happily pick up grooming tools that regularly flew out of my
hand while I was vigorously brushing him, but would also tidy up the arena
by bringing me sundry objects which others had dropped , like whips, hats,
tissues, and little traffic cones.  And miniature horses have an average
lifespan of 30-40 years or more, compared with the 10-15 year lifespan of
dogs, which means you can expect an amazing, long-lasting and continuously
deepening relationship with one very special animal partner.  Around the
year 2000 I began hearing reports of the Guide Horse Foundation's training
of the first miniature horses as guides for blind people, and I was
intrigued.  I had not known up to that time, that there were horses small
enough to serve as guides.

Third, through my interests in dogs and horses and their training (obedience
for dogs as well as guide work, and dressage riding and general management
for horses) I had become convinced that I wanted a guide animal trained with
methods which relied on positive reinforcement rather than what is called
"correction" in the guide dog world.  By the year 2000, methods which were
based in behavioral science and which relied on positive reinforcement were
becoming the norm in training dogs as well as most other species of animals
for all types of management, performance, and companionship/obedience tasks.
However, guide dog training programs were largely entrenched in the
traditional methods which relied on correction both during the dogs'
training and in the relationship between the dog and handler after
placement.  I had become accustomed to working with my horses and dogs in
the more positive way, and I no longer wanted to go back to the
punishment-based methods of the guide dog programs.

Fourth, I was fortunate to be working and sharing a barn with Alexandra
Kurland, who is the foremost advocate of positive training methods,
specifically, clicker training, in the horse world.  So when I expressed to
Alex my interest in perhaps working with a miniature horse guide instead of
a successor guide dog, she responded with a proposal that we acquire and
train a miniature horse to be my guide, and that we use clicker training
exclusively both to train and to handle the guide horse, to which I
enthusiastically agreed.

So, in the summer of 2001, we started searching the internet for a suitable
young miniature horse.  We found a good prospect in Florida, flew down to
meet her, and knew immediately that she would be our little clicker guide.
Panda came to live with Alex in September, 2001, in the days just after 9-11
when we were all in a shocked daze, wondering what the world would be like
in the next months and years.  She definitely proved to be a bright star in
a time of darkness and doubt.  Panda was just 8 months old when she started
her training, which was a combination of both basic socialization and guide
training, and which lasted about 18 months.  She was actually ready to go to
work full-time earlier, but we didn't want to have her begin her working
life until she was over two years old.  Panda came to live with me and
became my full-time guide in the summer of 2003, and she has been the most
wonderful, consistent, confident, and intelligent guide that anyone could
hope for.  She just celebrated her 13th birthday, and we have been working
together for ten and a half years, with the prospect of decades of happy
partnership ahead of us.

In answer to your question about how guide horses work-- They do all of the
same guide tasks as guide dogs do, although sometimes they do it a bit
differently than the dogs.  For example, instead of going under a table or
chair in a restaurant or on the bus, the guide horse stands beside my chair
or between the bus seats.  The horses don't sit as dogs do, but they either
stand or lie down instead.  They do all the usual guide tasks such as
stopping at curbs and stairs, going around obstacles, changing speed for
uneven footing or for ice, mud, water, etc., looking out for overhead
obstacles, turning left and right on cue, monitoring moving vehicles at
driveways and street crossings and exercising intelligent disobedience when
necessary, and finding specific places in the environment, such as doors to
go inside or outside, elevators, stairs, checkout counters, pedestrian
signal buttons, home, etc.  And yes, they are housetrained and relieve on
leash and on cue, just as the dogs do.

The organization I mentioned earlier, the Guide Horse Foundation, trained
the first working guide horse team, Dan Shaw and Cuddles, in the spring of
2001.  That organization trained a few more teams in the next couple of
years.  But as far as I can tell, they haven't been active in recent years.
All of the active teams that I am aware of, except for Dan Shaw and Cuddles,
have miniature horses which were privately trained or owner trained.

I hope that answers some of your questions.

Best,
Ann

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Daryl Marie
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 12:47 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: [nagdu] Miniature Guide Horses WAS Cincinnati Family with miniature
horse service animal, sues city.

Hi, Ann,

May I ask what prompted the change from guide dogs to guide horse?  Who
trains a guide horse?  Does it guide similar to a dog?  I am very curious!

Daryl
----- Original Message -----
From: Ann Edie <annedie at nycap.rr.com>
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thu, 20 Feb 2014 13:34:56 -0700 (MST)
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Cincinnati Family with miniature horse service animal,
sues city.

Hi, 

FYI, I use the same size plastic bags for picking up after my miniature
horse guide as I did for picking up after my dog guides.

Also, I keep my miniature horse guide at my property, a privately-owned
house in the suburbs with a lot not too much bigger than the one mentioned
in the article.  The town officials in my town as well as the animal control
officer and the code enforcement people are all aware of the presence of my
miniature horse guide, and none has given me a hassle about it.  My area is
zoned residential and does not permit what they call livestock.  (I know
this because the neighbors and town officials certainly did react quickly
when my daughter attempted to keep 4 baby chickens she rescued from her 8th
grade biology class in a pen in our backyard.  That requires a zoning
variance and the agreement of the neighbors.)

Anyway, I'm not here to support the keeping of any or all of the other
animals, but my miniature horse at least is considerably quieter than the
dogs that live on either side of my property, both of which bark incessantly
at anyone who moves in their vicinity.  And as for smell, I pick up after my
horse 4-6 times a day and there is never a pile left in the yard, whereas
the neighbors' dogs are allowed to leave piles in their yards for many days
before the waste is picked up, if ever.  And--this may be a matter of
opinion--but horse manure is nowhere near as bad smelling or objectionable
to pick up as is dog droppings.

My miniature horse is a trained service animal and I have the same right to
keep her in my home and to be accompanied by her in all places of public
accommodation as I would if she were a dog guide.  I believe the family in
this article may not be claiming that the horse is a trained service animal
for use in public, but rather as a medically prescribed support animal which
can be kept in the home under the Fair Housing Act.  I have only seen this
law used in the case of public housing or rental properties, so don't know
if that law applies to privately owned homes and to town zoning codes.  But
I have heard of a couple of court cases where the lawyers brought into court
a miniature horse and a large, rambunctious mastiff or great Dane for the
court to compare as to which might be more noisy, smelly, and disruptive to
neighborhood tranquility.  Which do you think would come out on top?

Best,
Ann

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