[nagdu] Miniature Guide Horses WAS Cincinnati Family with miniature horse service animal, sues city.

[Shannon Dyer]

Mona and I went to school together. She met my first guide dog. Then, I moved away. We correspond every now and then. She seems very happy with her horse, and I've heard that she would like to open a training program at some point.

Her blog can be found at:
theeyesofmona.blogspot.com

However, it hasn't been updated in quite some time.

Shannon and the Acelet
On Feb 24, 2014, at 8:57 PM, "Ann Edie" <annedie at nycap.rr.com> wrote:

> Hi, Darla,
> 
> Neither Alex nor I have any plans to open a guide horse training program.
> But there is another guide horse user who has trained a couple of guide
> horses for other people and is thinking of starting some sort of
> organization to help people who want to be partnered with a guide horse
> achieve their goal.  That person's name is Mona Ramouni, and I believe she
> has a blog called "theeyesofmona".  I think she has been on some of these
> lists in the past, but I don't remember which ones.
> 
> Best,
> Ann
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Darla Rogers
> Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2014 7:41 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Miniature Guide Horses WAS Cincinnati Family with
> miniature horse service animal, sues city.
> 
> Dear Ann,
> 
> 	I think your post was fantastic; you answered my questions--and
> others--very clearly. now if I could just see her work.
> 	I love horses but don't know nearly as much about them as you do,
> but I have read a lot of how you and Alex trained her; maybe you'll  open a
> guide horse school some day?
> Darla & handsome Huck
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ann Edie
> Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2014 9:14 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Miniature Guide Horses WAS Cincinnati Family with
> miniature horse service animal, sues city.
> 
> Hi, Darla and Everyone,
> 
> Panda does not wear any shoes on her feet.  Miniature horses in general do
> not wear the metal type of horseshoes that larger horses wear, because their
> hoof walls are not thick enough to support the nails that hold shoes on the
> big horses.  But even many full-sized horses (like my own two riding horses)
> go barefoot, if the footing they work on is not too wearing on their hooves.
> Some of the miniature guide horses do wear little sneakers made for human
> children or rubber-soled shoes made for horses, but I haven't felt the need
> very often to put shoes on Panda.  She has very good balance and doesn't
> generally slip on normal walking surfaces.  She is very steady on ice, tile,
> and other surfaces which can sometimes be slippery.  And road salt, ice, and
> even hot pavement do not seem to be a problem for horses' hooves the way
> they are for dogs' paws.  Panda is sometimes reluctant to walk on wet wooden
> stairs.  I'm not sure whether this is for her own safety or that she thinks
> they are dangerous for me to walk on.  But I have thought of trying the Pawz
> type of foot coverings on her to see if they give her more confidence on
> this type of surface.  I think the little sneakers that were first put on
> miniature horse guides by the Guide Horse Foundation were used to reassure
> the public that the miniature horse's hooves would not damage their floors,
> as well as to give the horses more traction on slippery surfaces.  But the
> truth is that, because of the larger surface area of the horses' hooves in
> contact with the floor, which distributes the weight of the animal over a
> larger area, horses' hooves have less impact on floors than do humans who
> are wearing skinny-heeled shoes or dogs with nails that are long enough to
> touch the floor when they walk.  Also, if you feel the edges of a miniature
> horse's hooves, you will find that they are quite nicely rounded and do not
> have sharp edges.
> 
> Panda's harness is almost exactly the same style as harnesses from some of
> the largest guide dog programs.  Her harness is leather, and was made by
> Dave Shabbot, who makes harnesses for many of the guide dog programs.
> Actually, it is sort of a combination of a Seeing Eye harness and a Fidelco
> harness, because I liked some features of each, and since Dave was custom
> making the harness for me, I could choose from a wide variety of features,
> fittings, colors, etc.  The one design difference between Panda's harness
> and a guide dog harness is in the back strap.  Instead of going straight
> across the animal's back, Panda's back strap has a U shape in its middle to
> go around her withers (with the bottom of the U toward her tail.)  This is
> to prevent pressure from the weight of the harness being concentrated on the
> withers, the bony top of the shoulders of the horse, which could cause
> rubbing and sores.  I have thought of possibly getting a nylon harness made
> for her, but haven't done that yet.  I use an ergonomic handle on the
> harness, which allows my hand to rest at a more natural angle than does a
> traditional straight handle.  Panda wears a regular horse halter on her head
> when she is working, to which I clip a (Fidelco style) guide dog leash by
> means of a ring under her chin.
> 
> As to the question of whether there are any circumstances in which I would
> not think a guide horse is a suitable choice of mobility aide, actually, I
> will turn that around and say that I think a person has to have really good
> reasons to want to partner with a miniature horse guide to make it worth the
> additional complications and pioneering aspects of being a trailblazer.  I
> think for most people, dog guides work out just fine and provide excellent
> mobility.  And these days, people in general know a lot more about how to
> live with dogs than they do about how to live and work with horses.  And I'm
> hoping that as more guide dog schools give positive training methods a
> larger place in their training programs both with the dogs and with the
> human students, That the success rates for new teams and the working
> longevity of teams will increase due to decreased stress on both team
> members.  Of course, there will still be the large difference in the
> lifespans of dogs and horses, which makes the miniature horse an attractive
> option for some of us.  And there will be some people who simply love horses
> and prefer to work with a horse rather than with a dog as a mobility
> partner, just as there are some who choose a dog guide over the use of the
> white cane, even though the cane is the most basic and probably most
> convenient mobility aide.  And there will be some people who have other
> reasons, such as religious or cultural reasons, allergies, or fears/phobias,
> for choosing a horse over a dog guide.
> 
> The main disadvantages of the miniature horse compared with the dog as a
> guide animal are that the miniature horse is in general larger and takes up
> more space, and the difference of the horse's digestive system which
> requires more frequent feeding and, therefore, more frequent relieving than
> is needed for a dog.  There are places where I won't take my guide horse
> because of the space constraints.  Most of these are not strictly places of
> public accommodation in the strictest sense of the term, because almost all
> such places have to be accessible to wheelchair users, and if there is
> enough space for a person using a wheelchair, then there is enough space for
> Panda and me.  But some of the classrooms I work in are very crowded indeed
> with people, furniture, and equipment, so much so that it is a wonder they
> can pass fire safety inspections.  I always say that there is hardly enough
> space in some of these rooms for me to put down my bag of teaching
> materials, let alone enough space to put a guide animal, regardless of
> species.  It would be different if I had my own classroom where I could
> arrange things as needed to accommodate my guide.  But this is one of the
> challenges of working in an itinerant model.  I have had no problems finding
> adequate, out-of-the-way places to put my guide horse on city buses, trains,
> subway cars, or paratransit vehicles, but I have wondered where I might put
> her on an intercity bus--last time I looked, the Grayhound and Trailways
> buses around here were not wheelchair accessible either.  I don't know what
> their obligations are under the ADA, if any.  Taxis are another issue; some
> of them have very cramped back seats with very little floor space, and I
> wouldn't want my guide animal, whether a dog or a mini horse, to be up on
> the seat of the taxi.  So I might have to arrange for a taxi which is a
> minivan or the like.  Since I don't have to take taxis often, this hasn't
> been a problem for me.  My family transportation is a minivan, and Panda
> hops in and out of it and rides comfortably in it regularly, so that isn't
> an issue for us.
> 
> With regard to the horse's digestive system, horses are grazers, and unlike
> predators which eat only once in a while when they have had a successful
> hunt, grazers eat almost constantly for many hours of the day, nibbling and
> walking.  Their systems are designed for continuous processing of food, and
> problems such as ulcers and collick can occur if they don't get fed on a
> regular, frequent schedule.  Feeding a mini horse is not a problem, however,
> since their feed is not smelly or very messy.  They can be fed a few feed
> pellets or a couple of soaked hay cubes once in a while without much fuss.
> Since what goes in must also come out, horses need to relieve themselves
> more often than do dogs.  So it takes some planning and attention on the
> part of the handler to make sure that the guide horse's needs are met within
> a normal busy day.  If you're the type of person who loses herself in her
> work for many hours at a time, or if you're stuck in meetings or conferences
> from which not even the human participants can escape for a bathroom break,
> then it is going to be a bit of a challenge to make sure that the guide
> horse gets a chance to relieve on her schedule, not yours.  Long airplane
> flights and overnight stays in hotels are other situations which take a bit
> of forethought and attention to handle, but that is not to say that they
> cannot be handled.  Relieving harnesses permit us to relieve the animal in
> places that are not necessarily designated as relief areas but which are
> closer or more conveniently located, or when we can't get to the great
> outdoors.  These harnesses also make clean up much easier even when you do
> relieve the animal outdoors and on its preferred surface.  At home, of
> course, you can arrange things so that the miniature horse can have access
> to the outdoors or to its relief area either at will, such as through a
> "doggie door" or by indicating its need to go out and being let out or taken
> out to a designated spot to relieve.
> 
> I'm often asked whether guide horses can live and work in cities or if they
> are best suited for life in rural areas and suburbs.  While I personally
> would not want to try keeping my miniature horse guide in a city highrise
> apartment, I think there are other options within most cities which could
> work well for guide horse teams.  For example, apartments or town homes with
> a deck, garden, or yard could be adapted easily for this purpose.  If
> sighted residents have parking spaces close to their apartments, then a
> small shed could be put in a resident's parking space for the miniature
> horse to stay in when it is not with its human partner.  Or a small shed and
> yard could be constructed in the backyard of the building.  As for working
> in the city, Panda, at least, loves working in the city and is not at all
> worried or spooked by all the bustle and noise.  I think she likes the
> challenge and adventure of it.  And maybe she enjoys moving along with the
> crowds of people as horses move with their bands or large herds.
> 
> Sorry for the long rambling message.  I hope it answered some of your
> questions as well as the questions of other list members.  I would love to
> introduce you to Panda and let you see how she works and show you what a
> delightful personality she has.  I'm glad you have such a great new partner
> in Huck, and may you enjoy many years of happy travels together.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Darla Rogers
> Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2014 2:21 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Miniature Guide Horses WAS Cincinnati Family with
> miniature horse service animal, sues city.
> 
> Dear Ann,
> 	Two questions I am not sure I have ever seen answers for, though I'm
> sure you have.
> 	First, what does Panda wear on her feet?  The ones I have heard
> about seem to wear human shoes, but I know the hoof is shaped differently?
> 	Second, under what circumstances, all else being equal, do you
> believe might not be suitable for a miniature horse guide?
> 	Oops; I have another one, what does her harness look like?
> 	Boy; i  wish I live closer; I'd love to see the two of you working
> together.
> 	I would be lying if I said I didn't wish our dog relationships
> lasted longer, especially when you have such a fantastic dog, as I do now.
> 	Thank you very much for being so open and explaining things so well.
> Darla & Huggable Huck
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ann Edie
> Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2014 12:47 AM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Miniature Guide Horses WAS Cincinnati Family with
> miniature horse service animal, sues city.
> 
> Hi, Daryl and Everyone,
> 
> You asked how or why I switched from using guide dogs to working with a
> miniature horse guide.  Well, my decision to work with a miniature horse
> guide was prompted by many experiences and philosophical factors.
> 
> First of all, perhaps, was my experience with guide dogs.  After working for
> 9 years with my first, wonderful chocolate Labrador guide dog, I experienced
> 2 heart-breaking attempted partnerships with one male and one female German
> shepherd guide.  I decided that, even in the case of the very successful
> guide dog, the working lifespan of dogs is painfully short, and the
> disruption during the period of the decline of the working guide, the loss
> of that relationship, the time of transition to a new dog guide, and the
> period of adjustment and team building with the new dog guide, were just too
> stressful for me physically, emotionally and in terms of time commitment for
> me to want to repeat the process every few years.  And it is even harder if
> you throw in the occasional mismatch or match with a dog who decides he/she
> really isn't prepared to work full time as a guide.
> 
> Second, I am, and have always been, a horse lover.  At the time I got my
> miniature horse, I already owned 3 riding horses and was very involved in
> their care and training.  I knew that horses are intelligent enough to do
> guide work and that many of them have the temperament to do the work.  I
> also knew that horses do look upon the humans with whom they have close
> relationships as members of their bands (families), and do take on the roles
> of companion and guide/protector as needed.  My own Arabian horse, Magnat,
> acted as my guide both when I was riding him and when I was walking with
> him.  I had trained him to stop at changes of footing and elevation and
> before going through doorways or gateways so that I could orient myself and
> make sure the passage was clear.  He was also a wonderful retriever who
> would not only happily pick up grooming tools that regularly flew out of my
> hand while I was vigorously brushing him, but would also tidy up the arena
> by bringing me sundry objects which others had dropped , like whips, hats,
> tissues, and little traffic cones.  And miniature horses have an average
> lifespan of 30-40 years or more, compared with the 10-15 year lifespan of
> dogs, which means you can expect an amazing, long-lasting and continuously
> deepening relationship with one very special animal partner.  Around the
> year 2000 I began hearing reports of the Guide Horse Foundation's training
> of the first miniature horses as guides for blind people, and I was
> intrigued.  I had not known up to that time, that there were horses small
> enough to serve as guides.
> 
> Third, through my interests in dogs and horses and their training (obedience
> for dogs as well as guide work, and dressage riding and general management
> for horses) I had become convinced that I wanted a guide animal trained with
> methods which relied on positive reinforcement rather than what is called
> "correction" in the guide dog world.  By the year 2000, methods which were
> based in behavioral science and which relied on positive reinforcement were
> becoming the norm in training dogs as well as most other species of animals
> for all types of management, performance, and companionship/obedience tasks.
> However, guide dog training programs were largely entrenched in the
> traditional methods which relied on correction both during the dogs'
> training and in the relationship between the dog and handler after
> placement.  I had become accustomed to working with my horses and dogs in
> the more positive way, and I no longer wanted to go back to the
> punishment-based methods of the guide dog programs.
> 
> Fourth, I was fortunate to be working and sharing a barn with Alexandra
> Kurland, who is the foremost advocate of positive training methods,
> specifically, clicker training, in the horse world.  So when I expressed to
> Alex my interest in perhaps working with a miniature horse guide instead of
> a successor guide dog, she responded with a proposal that we acquire and
> train a miniature horse to be my guide, and that we use clicker training
> exclusively both to train and to handle the guide horse, to which I
> enthusiastically agreed.
> 
> So, in the summer of 2001, we started searching the internet for a suitable
> young miniature horse.  We found a good prospect in Florida, flew down to
> meet her, and knew immediately that she would be our little clicker guide.
> Panda came to live with Alex in September, 2001, in the days just after 9-11
> when we were all in a shocked daze, wondering what the world would be like
> in the next months and years.  She definitely proved to be a bright star in
> a time of darkness and doubt.  Panda was just 8 months old when she started
> her training, which was a combination of both basic socialization and guide
> training, and which lasted about 18 months.  She was actually ready to go to
> work full-time earlier, but we didn't want to have her begin her working
> life until she was over two years old.  Panda came to live with me and
> became my full-time guide in the summer of 2003, and she has been the most
> wonderful, consistent, confident, and intelligent guide that anyone could
> hope for.  She just celebrated her 13th birthday, and we have been working
> together for ten and a half years, with the prospect of decades of happy
> partnership ahead of us.
> 
> In answer to your question about how guide horses work-- They do all of the
> same guide tasks as guide dogs do, although sometimes they do it a bit
> differently than the dogs.  For example, instead of going under a table or
> chair in a restaurant or on the bus, the guide horse stands beside my chair
> or between the bus seats.  The horses don't sit as dogs do, but they either
> stand or lie down instead.  They do all the usual guide tasks such as
> stopping at curbs and stairs, going around obstacles, changing speed for
> uneven footing or for ice, mud, water, etc., looking out for overhead
> obstacles, turning left and right on cue, monitoring moving vehicles at
> driveways and street crossings and exercising intelligent disobedience when
> necessary, and finding specific places in the environment, such as doors to
> go inside or outside, elevators, stairs, checkout counters, pedestrian
> signal buttons, home, etc.  And yes, they are housetrained and relieve on
> leash and on cue, just as the dogs do.
> 
> The organization I mentioned earlier, the Guide Horse Foundation, trained
> the first working guide horse team, Dan Shaw and Cuddles, in the spring of
> 2001.  That organization trained a few more teams in the next couple of
> years.  But as far as I can tell, they haven't been active in recent years.
> All of the active teams that I am aware of, except for Dan Shaw and Cuddles,
> have miniature horses which were privately trained or owner trained.
> 
> I hope that answers some of your questions.
> 
> Best,
> Ann
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Daryl Marie
> Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 12:47 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: [nagdu] Miniature Guide Horses WAS Cincinnati Family with miniature
> horse service animal, sues city.
> 
> Hi, Ann,
> 
> May I ask what prompted the change from guide dogs to guide horse?  Who
> trains a guide horse?  Does it guide similar to a dog?  I am very curious!
> 
> Daryl
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Ann Edie <annedie at nycap.rr.com>
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thu, 20 Feb 2014 13:34:56 -0700 (MST)
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Cincinnati Family with miniature horse service animal,
> sues city.
> 
> Hi, 
> 
> FYI, I use the same size plastic bags for picking up after my miniature
> horse guide as I did for picking up after my dog guides.
> 
> Also, I keep my miniature horse guide at my property, a privately-owned
> house in the suburbs with a lot not too much bigger than the one mentioned
> in the article.  The town officials in my town as well as the animal control
> officer and the code enforcement people are all aware of the presence of my
> miniature horse guide, and none has given me a hassle about it.  My area is
> zoned residential and does not permit what they call livestock.  (I know
> this because the neighbors and town officials certainly did react quickly
> when my daughter attempted to keep 4 baby chickens she rescued from her 8th
> grade biology class in a pen in our backyard.  That requires a zoning
> variance and the agreement of the neighbors.)
> 
> Anyway, I'm not here to support the keeping of any or all of the other
> animals, but my miniature horse at least is considerably quieter than the
> dogs that live on either side of my property, both of which bark incessantly
> at anyone who moves in their vicinity.  And as for smell, I pick up after my
> horse 4-6 times a day and there is never a pile left in the yard, whereas
> the neighbors' dogs are allowed to leave piles in their yards for many days
> before the waste is picked up, if ever.  And--this may be a matter of
> opinion--but horse manure is nowhere near as bad smelling or objectionable
> to pick up as is dog droppings.
> 
> My miniature horse is a trained service animal and I have the same right to
> keep her in my home and to be accompanied by her in all places of public
> accommodation as I would if she were a dog guide.  I believe the family in
> this article may not be claiming that the horse is a trained service animal
> for use in public, but rather as a medically prescribed support animal which
> can be kept in the home under the Fair Housing Act.  I have only seen this
> law used in the case of public housing or rental properties, so don't know
> if that law applies to privately owned homes and to town zoning codes.  But
> I have heard of a couple of court cases where the lawyers brought into court
> a miniature horse and a large, rambunctious mastiff or great Dane for the
> court to compare as to which might be more noisy, smelly, and disruptive to
> neighborhood tranquility.  Which do you think would come out on top?
> 
> Best,
> Ann
> 
> 
> 
> 
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