[nagdu] Fwd: Starting with clicker training?

Wed Jul 9 00:47:01 UTC 2014

Vivianna, 
First of all, I think it is important to be respectful of all training methods, whether you use them or not.
Secondly, people make mistakes, they use methods incorrectly, whether it be from ignorants, impatience, or any number of reasons.  
Just like traditional trainers who use the method correctly do not correct their dog at every turn, a clicker trainer is not shoving food at the dog all the time. 
Yes, when I'm introducing a thing to my dog, in my home or in a quiet place, the rate of reinforcement is quite high.  But when we are fluent enough in the behavior to be working it in public, in a public place like a mall, she is not getting treats all the time.  She may get one from time to time, after doing someth well that we've been working on, but by all means she will work without them.  
My dog Soleil has been in training since October 25th.  Today, I forgot my treat pouch at home, and she walked me to a coffee shop, lay quietly while I ordered, took me back outside, guided some more, found the bus stop, rode it with me to work, walked me to work, and around my office, left with me at the end of the day, found the bus stop again, rode with me to the grocery store, walked through the store with me, and then took the bus home, after which she walked with me home.  None of this with a treat. No snatching of food or stealing of items or whatnot.  She is a young dog and far from perfect, but she knows her job. 
I know plenty of people who use leash corrections who have ruined a dog.  It does not mean that the method is wrong or bad, or that I should make fun of it. It means that there are people out there who do not know how to use it correctly.  I choose another method, and have made my share of mistakes, but that's kind of the human condition.  
And lastly, I just want to say that treats are not all bad I work, and I love my job, but I still like having a check every Friday, and that's how I think of treats.  

 Rox and the kitchen Bitches: 
Mill'E, Laveau, Soleil
Pawpower4me at gmail.com
Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 8, 2014, at 7:12 PM, Vivianna via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> 
>> i actually know of one woman who had to send her dog back because it was so food obsessed.  
>> she was in a mall when she ran out of treats.  she was at the bottom of a flight of stairs and the dog refused to go forward because she did not have a treat to give it.  also, that dog was horrible in any store with food in it.
>> no way, not for me.
>> it seems to me that offering food for everything would encourage scrounging in a major way.
>> i know many many folks will swear by it but, it’s not for me.
>> so, how do you train for something like over head objects?  you are walking along and you run your face into a branch.  then what?
>> and, what if your dog is just being a brat that day and runs a curb?
>> you can’t just stop without saying anything and rework it?  
>> no and even a leash correction can be a very fine thing.  smile.
>> mind you, i am not leash correcting my dog all day long.  i may have to give her 1 every couple days or, maybe not for a week.  
>> 
>> i know this woman who thought clicker training her horse would be a cool thing to do.
>> so, she did it.  whenever her horse did a movement properly, she would give it a treat.
>> then it was show time and, she was riding a test for the judge.  her horse kept stopping and looking for a treat after every move.  needless to say, she failed badly.
>> then, she had to try and undo all of that treat orientation.  lol.
>> 
>> Vivianna
>> 
>>> On Jul 8, 2014, at 6:59 PM, Buddy Brannan <buddy at brannan.name> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Vivianna,
>>> 
>>> I agree there’s lots of value in those “old-fashioned” methods. Clicker or whatever marker you choose has its value as well. While I believe that we definitely want to teach our dogs what we expect of them, and there are lots of great methods to do this, unlike some trainers of “modern” schools of thought, I also believe it’s perfectly reasonable, desirable, and acceptable to teach your dog that there are things that are *not* acceptable, behaviors you *don’t* want, and boundaries they cannot cross. So, yes, rewarding behavior you want is great, but it has to, I believe, be balanced with teaching what you don’t want. In my world, there are sometimes consequences for actions. Also, I think that once your dog starts to understand a task, phasing out the treats really has to happen, if you use them. And there’s nothing wrong with using them to teach a behavior or task. But IMO, a food-obsessed dog with the “will work for food” sign sounds a little unsafe. 
>>> 
>>>> On Jul 8, 2014, at 7:50 PM, Vivianna <irishana at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> i personally do not use clicker training.
>>>> during convention one woman told me that she was using the click and treat if her dog did a traffic check. ok, i just don’t get this.  why would i ever want my dog to turn it’s head towards me seeking a treat just after a traffic check?  my dog should continue to look out for traffic?
>>>> another thing she told me was that dog was always seeking treats not only from her but from strangers, putting it’s nose in their hands.
>>>> i’ll stick with the traditional good old, good girl and lots of praise.  
>>>> 
>>>> Vivianna
>>>> 
>>>>> On Jul 8, 2014, at 5:30 PM, Buddy Brannan via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> This might help:
>>>>> http://www.sue-eh.ca/page24/page23/
>>>>> 
>>>>> The original levels are available for free, but you can buy the new edition for $25 in accessible formats. I have it.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I’m not convinced that any one training method is *the* answer to everything, nor is one training philosophy correct to every situation or even every dog. There’s value to be had with a variety of tools. 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Jul 8, 2014, at 5:39 PM, Julie J. via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Daryl,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I'm not sure exactly what you mean by starting clicker training alone.  I started using clicker training with Belle.  I did read lots and lots of books.  I had a couple of email lists specific to clicker training where I asked lots of questions.  For a while I had a trainer I worked with by phone, but that didn't turn out so well.  she was sighted and could only give sighted people instructions.  I was too new to the concepts to be able to problem solve non visual ways myself.  I was frustrated and gave it up for a short bit.  that's when I found the email lists, which turned out to be much more helpful.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I live in a really small town, so there are no group classes or local trainers that use clicker training.  I've always wanted to go to a weekend workshop on clicker, but those don't come anywhere close.  All my connections to clicker knowledge have been through the computer.  If that's what you mean by starting alone, then I think there are several folks on this list that fit that description.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> You can totally do it yourself.  Just read and get comfortable with the ideas.  when you are ready start with the very basics of getting Jenny introduced to the concept of click means reward is coming.  then move on to a hand touch.  From there you can teach most anything.  Just remember not to go too fast or lump too much in together.  that's my biggest challenge.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Think of it like building a block tower.  One block in the right place gets a click and a treat.  Sure one block looks nothing like you want the finished tower, but it is the first step.  Next time it's two blocks, and the next it's three...until she gets the to the finished behavior.  At first it will seem really slow.  That's because you are still fine tuning your technique and Jenny is learning to think differently.  The time it takes to teach a completed task will become dramatically faster the more you use clicker.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> HTH
>>>>>> Julie
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Daryl Marie via nagdu
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2014 2:09 PM
>>>>>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] Starting with clicker training?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> hi!
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> As I am moving away from the correction/choke collar, I am considering using clicker training in my partnership with Jenny.  Has anyone started clicker training on their own? Any pointers? Dos and Don'ts?  I know Raven posted www.clickertraining.com as a great resource, but it feel really really overwhelming!
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Daryl and Jenny
>>>>>> 
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>>>>>> 
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>>>>> 
>>>>> 
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