[nagdu] Fwd: Starting with clicker training?

Wed Jul 9 01:27:19 UTC 2014

mm. Or not off list. Still, I’m sure glad I didn’t say anything mean! 

On Jul 8, 2014, at 9:26 PM, Buddy Brannan via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:

> Off-list, Julie, I hope you don’t think I’m out of line in any of my comments, because I absolutely mean no disrespect. I think there’s plenty of value in many training techniques. They’re all tools and some may be more appropriate to certain situations than others. I definitely have a lot to learn myself. In reality, it sounds as though you train obstacles in the same way I always work them myself, for example. I think that clicker maybe gets a bad rap because of the trainers who are “doing it wrong” are so darn visible about it. 
> On Jul 8, 2014, at 9:11 PM, Julie J. via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
>> If you don't want to use clicker training, then don't.  I am in no way saying it's for everyone or that it's the only way.  It's just what has worked for me.
>> 
>> I'll explain how I taught overheads and curbs, but I'm not really sure why you want to know so badly.  It doesn't seem like information that would be useful to you.
>> 
>> I start in a place where I know where the overhead or curb is.  I work the dog toward the obstacle.  If the dog is very green I might stop and show the dog the branch/curb. then I'll show the dog what I want by heeling him around the branch or tapping the curb with my foot before moving on.  If the dog is ready to take on a bit more responsibility I'll back up and let the dog work me up to the obstacle, clicking and giving a treat for any slowing or evidence that he is thinking about my safety.  It doesn't have to be perfect, just a hint that we are on the right track.  Then we repeat until he is understanding the concept.  Then it's off to a bunch of other similar situations so he can get in practice and generalize the skill.
>> 
>> Monty is 7 now.  If he misses a curb, which is rare, I don't correct. Usually my stumbling or startling is more than enough of a correction for him.  I don't say anything. I back up and rework it.  He doesn't goof up on his second try.  He's a seasoned guide.
>> 
>> If he seems distracted, I try to figure out what is going on and fix it. Yesterday I was going into a restaurant with a few other people.  I got a fair bit ahead and Monty kept looking back to see where the other people were.  I could have corrected him, but it would have just made him more anxious about where the rest of the group was.  The better choice was to wait until my son caught up.  then Monty feels better about us being all together and we can go on our merry way.  and I know some of you are thinking, but if I want to go where ever and I don't want to walk with my group, then by god I want my dog to do that.  That's fine, if that works for you.  It's just not how I choose to work with my dog.
>> 
>> For me it's about being respectful of Monty and our relationship.  If he feels better knowing that all his people are together and accounted for, then I'm willing to wait ten seconds for him to have that.  He waits around for me all day every day. If he goofs on a curb or overhang, I'm going to assume that it was an honest mistake and give him the opportunity to do it correctly.
>> 
>> If you are happy with the way you work your dog, then don't change it. Daryl isn't. she's looking for a different approach.  she asked, so I was sharing what worked for me.
>> 
>> Julie
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message----- From: Vivianna via nagdu
>> Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2014 7:45 PM
>> To: Julie J.
>> Cc: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fwd: Starting with clicker training?
>> 
>> during convention i saw one dog, age 8 who was still getting treats, although she just said good boy and did not use a clicker.  also saw another dog, age 6, same thing.
>> the one dog put it’s nose in my hand twice, just checking.  heh.
>> ok, so you say all this but, i still don’t have an answer about training for over head obstacles or curb running when the dog knows better.
>> yess, i am being devil’s advocate here but, i am also truly interested in how this can be done successfully.
>> and, it’s good for folks to know that, clicker is not the one and true only way to have a well trained guide.
>> 
>> vivianna
>> 
>> On Jul 8, 2014, at 7:39 PM, Julie J. <julielj at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Vivianna,
>>> 
>>> There are ways to inappropriately use clicker, just like you can inappropriately give leash corrections.  If a dog won't work unless there is food on offer, it has not been appropriately trained.  My current guide, Monty, likes food a lot.   He was clicker trained, for the most part. He does not scrounge, steal food or act inappropriately around food. If you give him food, he will certainly take it, but he will not take what isn't his.
>>> 
>>> Also I think there is some confusion about clicker training.  I've been working Monty for 5 plus years now.  I honestly can't remember the last time I used or even took the clicker with me on one of our regular errands or walks to work.  It has been years since the clicker was a regular part of our equipment.  I get it out if I'm teaching something new or if I need to brush up on a problem area, but I'm not clicking and treating all day every day.  That's silly.  He's trained.  I don't need to keep reinforcing those skills.  I think that's how the no work no food problem might be coming up. There is definitely a point when you need to phase out the clicker and treats.  I think folks are misunderstanding that part.
>>> 
>>> Julie
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message----- From: Vivianna via nagdu
>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2014 7:12 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: [nagdu] Fwd: Starting with clicker training?
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> i actually know of one woman who had to send her dog back because it was so food obsessed.
>>>> she was in a mall when she ran out of treats.  she was at the bottom of a flight of stairs and the dog refused to go forward because she did not have a treat to give it. also, that dog was horrible in any store with food in it.
>>>> no way, not for me.
>>>> it seems to me that offering food for everything would encourage scrounging in a major way.
>>>> i know many many folks will swear by it but, it’s not for me.
>>>> so, how do you train for something like over head objects?  you are walking along and you run your face into a branch.  then what?
>>>> and, what if your dog is just being a brat that day and runs a curb?
>>>> you can’t just stop without saying anything and rework it?
>>>> no and even a leash correction can be a very fine thing.  smile.
>>>> mind you, i am not leash correcting my dog all day long.  i may have to give her 1 every couple days or, maybe not for a week.
>>>> 
>>>> i know this woman who thought clicker training her horse would be a cool thing to do.
>>>> so, she did it.  whenever her horse did a movement properly, she would give it a treat.
>>>> then it was show time and, she was riding a test for the judge.  her horse kept stopping and looking for a treat after every move.  needless to say, she failed badly.
>>>> then, she had to try and undo all of that treat orientation.  lol.
>>>> 
>>>> Vivianna
>>>> 
>>>> On Jul 8, 2014, at 6:59 PM, Buddy Brannan <buddy at brannan.name> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Vivianna,
>>>>> 
>>>>> I agree there’s lots of value in those “old-fashioned” methods. Clicker or whatever marker you choose has its value as well. While I believe that we definitely want to teach our dogs what we expect of them, and there are lots of great methods to do this, unlike some trainers of “modern” schools of thought, I also believe it’s perfectly reasonable, desirable, and acceptable to teach your dog that there are things that are *not* acceptable, behaviors you *don’t* want, and boundaries they cannot cross. So, yes, rewarding behavior you want is great, but it has to, I believe, be balanced with teaching what you don’t want. In my world, there are sometimes consequences for actions. Also, I think that once your dog starts to understand a task, phasing out the treats really has to happen, if you use them. And there’s nothing wrong with using them to teach a behavior or task. But IMO, a food-obsessed dog with the “will work for food” sign sounds a little unsafe.
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Jul 8, 2014, at 7:50 PM, Vivianna <irishana at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> i personally do not use clicker training.
>>>>>> during convention one woman told me that she was using the click and treat if her dog did a traffic check. ok, i just don’t get this.  why would i ever want my dog to turn it’s head towards me seeking a treat just after a traffic check?  my dog should continue to look out for traffic?
>>>>>> another thing she told me was that dog was always seeking treats not only from her but from strangers, putting it’s nose in their hands.
>>>>>> i’ll stick with the traditional good old, good girl and lots of praise.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Vivianna
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Jul 8, 2014, at 5:30 PM, Buddy Brannan via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> This might help:
>>>>>>> http://www.sue-eh.ca/page24/page23/
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> The original levels are available for free, but you can buy the new edition for $25 in accessible formats. I have it.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I’m not convinced that any one training method is *the* answer to everything, nor is one training philosophy correct to every situation or even every dog. There’s value to be had with a variety of tools.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Jul 8, 2014, at 5:39 PM, Julie J. via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Daryl,
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I'm not sure exactly what you mean by starting clicker training alone. I started using clicker training with Belle.  I did read lots and lots of books.  I had a couple of email lists specific to clicker training where I asked lots of questions.  For a while I had a trainer I worked with by phone, but that didn't turn out so well. she was sighted and could only give sighted people instructions.  I was too new to the concepts to be able to problem solve non visual ways myself.  I was frustrated and gave it up for a short bit. that's when I found the email lists, which turned out to be much more helpful.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I live in a really small town, so there are no group classes or local trainers that use clicker training.  I've always wanted to go to a weekend workshop on clicker, but those don't come anywhere close. All my connections to clicker knowledge have been through the computer. If that's what you mean by starting alone, then I think there are several folks on this list that fit that description.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> You can totally do it yourself.  Just read and get comfortable with the ideas. when you are ready start with the very basics of getting Jenny introduced to the concept of click means reward is coming. then move on to a hand touch.  From there you can teach most anything. Just remember not to go too fast or lump too much in together.  that's my biggest challenge.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Think of it like building a block tower.  One block in the right place gets a click and a treat.  Sure one block looks nothing like you want the finished tower, but it is the first step.  Next time it's two blocks, and the next it's three...until she gets the to the finished behavior.  At first it will seem really slow.  That's because you are still fine tuning your technique and Jenny is learning to think differently.  The time it takes to teach a completed task will become dramatically faster the more you use clicker.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> HTH
>>>>>>>> Julie
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Daryl Marie via nagdu
>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2014 2:09 PM
>>>>>>>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] Starting with clicker training?
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> hi!
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> As I am moving away from the correction/choke collar, I am considering using clicker training in my partnership with Jenny.  Has anyone started clicker training on their own? Any pointers? Dos and Don'ts? I know Raven posted www.clickertraining.com as a great resource, but it feel really really overwhelming!
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Daryl and Jenny
>>>>>>>> 
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>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
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