[nagdu] Fwd: Starting with clicker training?
Nicole Torcolini
ntorcolini at wavecable.com
Wed Jul 9 03:25:51 UTC 2014
GDB uses clicker training, so any dogs who come from there know what it is.
I use it only when I am teaching something new or when Lexia needs some work
on an old task that seems to have forgotten. As soon as she seems to have
gotten the hang of whatever it is, I take the clicker out of the picture. I
will sometimes continue with the treats, but not with the clicker. She knows
what the treats are for. For some silly reason, clicker and treats is more
exciting to Lexia than just treats alone, so I stop the clicker as soon as
possible to keep her from getting so excited. Sometimes, she is so excited
about the clicker that she misses the point of what I am trying to teach her
or she will move her nose away from whatever it that she is supposed to be
targeting in anticipation of the treat. She will occasionally look for a
treat when not using the clicker, but not that often. She also thrives from
verbal and physical praise. If there are not a lot of people around and she
has gotten me successfully to a certain place, I will have a little party
about it, and she sticks her nose in the air and wags.
Nicole and Lexia who says did I hear a click?
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Darla Rogers via
nagdu
Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2014 6:44 PM
To: 'The Pawpower Pack'; 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of
Guide Dog Users'; 'Vivianna'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fwd: Starting with clicker training?
Go Soleil; go!!!!!! Wow; she is really getting it, isn't she?'
Darla & the Furry Bosses
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of The Pawpower Pack
via nagdu
Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2014 8:00 PM
To: Vivianna; NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fwd: Starting with clicker training?
Vivianna,
When I'm teaching these skills, I do set it up so that I run into something.
Obviously I've set it up so the thing will be soft in the case of an
overhead. Then, when I hit it, I take my dog back, have her sit, and then
ask her to go forward again. She has learned long before this, that the
reworking of a thing means that the way she did it is not what I'm looking
for. So we do it again, and the next time, she may stop before the
obsticle, and I click and treat- which she knows to mean that the behavior
she just did was the thingI was looking for.
As for curbs, I have my dogs sit at all curbs before we even start guide
training. It's not an option. I have never had dogs with as good of curb
work as my clicker trained dogs.
Soleil did not run one this morning, but she did approach it so that one
foot was on the blended part of the curb and the other on the edge of the
drop off part. This was not acceptable to me so I did as I said above,
stopped, went back and did it again. And she got it on the next round.
Rox and the kitchen Bitches:
Mill'E, Laveau, Soleil
Pawpower4me at gmail.com
Sent from my iPhone
> On Jul 8, 2014, at 7:45 PM, Vivianna via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>
> during convention i saw one dog, age 8 who was still getting treats,
although she just said good boy and did not use a clicker. also saw another
dog, age 6, same thing.
> the one dog put it's nose in my hand twice, just checking. heh.
> ok, so you say all this but, i still don't have an answer about training
for over head obstacles or curb running when the dog knows better.
> yess, i am being devil's advocate here but, i am also truly interested in
how this can be done successfully.
> and, it's good for folks to know that, clicker is not the one and true
only way to have a well trained guide.
>
> vivianna
>
>> On Jul 8, 2014, at 7:39 PM, Julie J. <julielj at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>
>> Vivianna,
>>
>> There are ways to inappropriately use clicker, just like you can
inappropriately give leash corrections. If a dog won't work unless there is
food on offer, it has not been appropriately trained. My current guide,
Monty, likes food a lot. He was clicker trained, for the most part. He
does not scrounge, steal food or act inappropriately around food. If you
give him food, he will certainly take it, but he will not take what isn't
his.
>>
>> Also I think there is some confusion about clicker training. I've been
working Monty for 5 plus years now. I honestly can't remember the last time
I used or even took the clicker with me on one of our regular errands or
walks to work. It has been years since the clicker was a regular part of
our equipment. I get it out if I'm teaching something new or if I need to
brush up on a problem area, but I'm not clicking and treating all day every
day. That's silly. He's trained. I don't need to keep reinforcing those
skills. I think that's how the no work no food problem might be coming up.
There is definitely a point when you need to phase out the clicker and
treats. I think folks are misunderstanding that part.
>>
>> Julie
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message----- From: Vivianna via nagdu
>> Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2014 7:12 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: [nagdu] Fwd: Starting with clicker training?
>>
>>
>>> i actually know of one woman who had to send her dog back because it was
so food obsessed.
>>> she was in a mall when she ran out of treats. she was at the bottom of
a flight of stairs and the dog refused to go forward because she did not
have a treat to give it. also, that dog was horrible in any store with food
in it.
>>> no way, not for me.
>>> it seems to me that offering food for everything would encourage
scrounging in a major way.
>>> i know many many folks will swear by it but, it's not for me.
>>> so, how do you train for something like over head objects? you are
walking along and you run your face into a branch. then what?
>>> and, what if your dog is just being a brat that day and runs a curb?
>>> you can't just stop without saying anything and rework it?
>>> no and even a leash correction can be a very fine thing. smile.
>>> mind you, i am not leash correcting my dog all day long. i may have to
give her 1 every couple days or, maybe not for a week.
>>>
>>> i know this woman who thought clicker training her horse would be a cool
thing to do.
>>> so, she did it. whenever her horse did a movement properly, she would
give it a treat.
>>> then it was show time and, she was riding a test for the judge. her
horse kept stopping and looking for a treat after every move. needless to
say, she failed badly.
>>> then, she had to try and undo all of that treat orientation. lol.
>>>
>>> Vivianna
>>>
>>>> On Jul 8, 2014, at 6:59 PM, Buddy Brannan <buddy at brannan.name> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Vivianna,
>>>>
>>>> I agree there's lots of value in those "old-fashioned" methods. Clicker
or whatever marker you choose has its value as well. While I believe that we
definitely want to teach our dogs what we expect of them, and there are lots
of great methods to do this, unlike some trainers of "modern" schools of
thought, I also believe it's perfectly reasonable, desirable, and acceptable
to teach your dog that there are things that are *not* acceptable, behaviors
you *don't* want, and boundaries they cannot cross. So, yes, rewarding
behavior you want is great, but it has to, I believe, be balanced with
teaching what you don't want. In my world, there are sometimes consequences
for actions. Also, I think that once your dog starts to understand a task,
phasing out the treats really has to happen, if you use them. And there's
nothing wrong with using them to teach a behavior or task. But IMO, a
food-obsessed dog with the "will work for food" sign sounds a little unsafe.
>>>>
>>>>> On Jul 8, 2014, at 7:50 PM, Vivianna <irishana at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> i personally do not use clicker training.
>>>>> during convention one woman told me that she was using the click and
treat if her dog did a traffic check. ok, i just don't get this. why would
i ever want my dog to turn it's head towards me seeking a treat just after a
traffic check? my dog should continue to look out for traffic?
>>>>> another thing she told me was that dog was always seeking treats not
only from her but from strangers, putting it's nose in their hands.
>>>>> i'll stick with the traditional good old, good girl and lots of
praise.
>>>>>
>>>>> Vivianna
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Jul 8, 2014, at 5:30 PM, Buddy Brannan via nagdu
<nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This might help:
>>>>>> http://www.sue-eh.ca/page24/page23/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The original levels are available for free, but you can buy the new
edition for $25 in accessible formats. I have it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm not convinced that any one training method is *the* answer to
everything, nor is one training philosophy correct to every situation or
even every dog. There's value to be had with a variety of tools.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Jul 8, 2014, at 5:39 PM, Julie J. via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Daryl,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm not sure exactly what you mean by starting clicker training
alone. I started using clicker training with Belle. I did read lots and
lots of books. I had a couple of email lists specific to clicker training
where I asked lots of questions. For a while I had a trainer I worked with
by phone, but that didn't turn out so well. she was sighted and could only
give sighted people instructions. I was too new to the concepts to be able
to problem solve non visual ways myself. I was frustrated and gave it up
for a short bit. that's when I found the email lists, which turned out to
be much more helpful.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I live in a really small town, so there are no group classes or
local trainers that use clicker training. I've always wanted to go to a
weekend workshop on clicker, but those don't come anywhere close. All my
connections to clicker knowledge have been through the computer. If that's
what you mean by starting alone, then I think there are several folks on
this list that fit that description.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You can totally do it yourself. Just read and get comfortable with
the ideas. when you are ready start with the very basics of getting Jenny
introduced to the concept of click means reward is coming. then move on to
a hand touch. From there you can teach most anything. Just remember not to
go too fast or lump too much in together. that's my biggest challenge.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Think of it like building a block tower. One block in the right
place gets a click and a treat. Sure one block looks nothing like you want
the finished tower, but it is the first step. Next time it's two blocks,
and the next it's three...until she gets the to the finished behavior. At
first it will seem really slow. That's because you are still fine tuning
your technique and Jenny is learning to think differently. The time it
takes to teach a completed task will become dramatically faster the more you
use clicker.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> HTH
>>>>>>> Julie
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Daryl Marie via nagdu
>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2014 2:09 PM
>>>>>>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] Starting with clicker training?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> hi!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As I am moving away from the correction/choke collar, I am
considering using clicker training in my partnership with Jenny. Has anyone
started clicker training on their own? Any pointers? Dos and Don'ts? I know
Raven posted www.clickertraining.com as a great resource, but it feel really
really overwhelming!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Daryl and Jenny
>>>>>>>
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