[nagdu] Fwd: Starting with clicker training?
Tami Jarvis
tami at poodlemutt.com
Wed Jul 9 04:27:29 UTC 2014
Interesting. Guess she missed the memo about labs and food? Just kidding!
I phase out the treats first, giving them Las Vegas style -- so the
treat for every random number of clicks. That's worked well with Mitzi.
I also tend to use praise and treats, clicks and praise, just praise,
whatever. I was more precise and consistent during training and into her
early working life, of course. I didn't start with the clicker, but was
using the same principles with praise and treats. So then when I finally
broke down and got a clicker and realized how much more precise it is, I
loved it but was still in the habit of praising. Mitzi also loves having
a party and will do her happy dance, which was fun when she was learning
a ton new all the time. Now it's all old hat, so sometimes I remember to
throw a small party just for fun when she does something we haven't done
for awhile. I'm not sure she really needs as much cheerleading as I give
her at times, but she does need some to keep her happy.
My husband's mutt is food motivated but as she's started to grow up, I
find she will prefer other rewards -- the praise, the click, a sniff
when she's having good leash manners, etc. Sometimes, she's not
interested in the treat these days. That surprises me in her, although
Mitzi is certainly that way. So I guess you never know about dogs and
treats. /smile/
She's also less sensitive than Mitzi, so when she's excited, I find
myself getting a lot more physical with her just to get her attention.
Now that she is growing a brain (we think), she's getting to be a light
touch and respond to voice command more and more. She's even able to
self-manage her excitement on walks, so she gets many chances to sniff,
which is way better than treats. /grin/
The important thing, I think, is to know your dog and what works best.
With a guide, I find leash corrections inconvenient somehow, so I
focused a lot on training Mitzi without them and to learn to handle her
without them, even her stubborn streak. I plan to do the same with my
next, which I will have in puppy form in a couple of days. We'll see if
I know what I'm doing, I guess. /lol/
Tami
On 07/08/2014 08:25 PM, Nicole Torcolini via nagdu wrote:
> GDB uses clicker training, so any dogs who come from there know what it is.
> I use it only when I am teaching something new or when Lexia needs some work
> on an old task that seems to have forgotten. As soon as she seems to have
> gotten the hang of whatever it is, I take the clicker out of the picture. I
> will sometimes continue with the treats, but not with the clicker. She knows
> what the treats are for. For some silly reason, clicker and treats is more
> exciting to Lexia than just treats alone, so I stop the clicker as soon as
> possible to keep her from getting so excited. Sometimes, she is so excited
> about the clicker that she misses the point of what I am trying to teach her
> or she will move her nose away from whatever it that she is supposed to be
> targeting in anticipation of the treat. She will occasionally look for a
> treat when not using the clicker, but not that often. She also thrives from
> verbal and physical praise. If there are not a lot of people around and she
> has gotten me successfully to a certain place, I will have a little party
> about it, and she sticks her nose in the air and wags.
>
> Nicole and Lexia who says did I hear a click?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Darla Rogers via
> nagdu
> Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2014 6:44 PM
> To: 'The Pawpower Pack'; 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of
> Guide Dog Users'; 'Vivianna'
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fwd: Starting with clicker training?
>
> Go Soleil; go!!!!!! Wow; she is really getting it, isn't she?'
> Darla & the Furry Bosses
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of The Pawpower Pack
> via nagdu
> Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2014 8:00 PM
> To: Vivianna; NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
> Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fwd: Starting with clicker training?
>
> Vivianna,
> When I'm teaching these skills, I do set it up so that I run into something.
> Obviously I've set it up so the thing will be soft in the case of an
> overhead. Then, when I hit it, I take my dog back, have her sit, and then
> ask her to go forward again. She has learned long before this, that the
> reworking of a thing means that the way she did it is not what I'm looking
> for. So we do it again, and the next time, she may stop before the
> obsticle, and I click and treat- which she knows to mean that the behavior
> she just did was the thingI was looking for.
> As for curbs, I have my dogs sit at all curbs before we even start guide
> training. It's not an option. I have never had dogs with as good of curb
> work as my clicker trained dogs.
> Soleil did not run one this morning, but she did approach it so that one
> foot was on the blended part of the curb and the other on the edge of the
> drop off part. This was not acceptable to me so I did as I said above,
> stopped, went back and did it again. And she got it on the next round.
>
> Rox and the kitchen Bitches:
> Mill'E, Laveau, Soleil
> Pawpower4me at gmail.com
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Jul 8, 2014, at 7:45 PM, Vivianna via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>
>> during convention i saw one dog, age 8 who was still getting treats,
> although she just said good boy and did not use a clicker. also saw another
> dog, age 6, same thing.
>> the one dog put it's nose in my hand twice, just checking. heh.
>> ok, so you say all this but, i still don't have an answer about training
> for over head obstacles or curb running when the dog knows better.
>> yess, i am being devil's advocate here but, i am also truly interested in
> how this can be done successfully.
>> and, it's good for folks to know that, clicker is not the one and true
> only way to have a well trained guide.
>>
>> vivianna
>>
>>> On Jul 8, 2014, at 7:39 PM, Julie J. <julielj at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Vivianna,
>>>
>>> There are ways to inappropriately use clicker, just like you can
> inappropriately give leash corrections. If a dog won't work unless there is
> food on offer, it has not been appropriately trained. My current guide,
> Monty, likes food a lot. He was clicker trained, for the most part. He
> does not scrounge, steal food or act inappropriately around food. If you
> give him food, he will certainly take it, but he will not take what isn't
> his.
>>>
>>> Also I think there is some confusion about clicker training. I've been
> working Monty for 5 plus years now. I honestly can't remember the last time
> I used or even took the clicker with me on one of our regular errands or
> walks to work. It has been years since the clicker was a regular part of
> our equipment. I get it out if I'm teaching something new or if I need to
> brush up on a problem area, but I'm not clicking and treating all day every
> day. That's silly. He's trained. I don't need to keep reinforcing those
> skills. I think that's how the no work no food problem might be coming up.
> There is definitely a point when you need to phase out the clicker and
> treats. I think folks are misunderstanding that part.
>>>
>>> Julie
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message----- From: Vivianna via nagdu
>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2014 7:12 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: [nagdu] Fwd: Starting with clicker training?
>>>
>>>
>>>> i actually know of one woman who had to send her dog back because it was
> so food obsessed.
>>>> she was in a mall when she ran out of treats. she was at the bottom of
> a flight of stairs and the dog refused to go forward because she did not
> have a treat to give it. also, that dog was horrible in any store with food
> in it.
>>>> no way, not for me.
>>>> it seems to me that offering food for everything would encourage
> scrounging in a major way.
>>>> i know many many folks will swear by it but, it's not for me.
>>>> so, how do you train for something like over head objects? you are
> walking along and you run your face into a branch. then what?
>>>> and, what if your dog is just being a brat that day and runs a curb?
>>>> you can't just stop without saying anything and rework it?
>>>> no and even a leash correction can be a very fine thing. smile.
>>>> mind you, i am not leash correcting my dog all day long. i may have to
> give her 1 every couple days or, maybe not for a week.
>>>>
>>>> i know this woman who thought clicker training her horse would be a cool
> thing to do.
>>>> so, she did it. whenever her horse did a movement properly, she would
> give it a treat.
>>>> then it was show time and, she was riding a test for the judge. her
> horse kept stopping and looking for a treat after every move. needless to
> say, she failed badly.
>>>> then, she had to try and undo all of that treat orientation. lol.
>>>>
>>>> Vivianna
>>>>
>>>>> On Jul 8, 2014, at 6:59 PM, Buddy Brannan <buddy at brannan.name> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Vivianna,
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree there's lots of value in those "old-fashioned" methods. Clicker
> or whatever marker you choose has its value as well. While I believe that we
> definitely want to teach our dogs what we expect of them, and there are lots
> of great methods to do this, unlike some trainers of "modern" schools of
> thought, I also believe it's perfectly reasonable, desirable, and acceptable
> to teach your dog that there are things that are *not* acceptable, behaviors
> you *don't* want, and boundaries they cannot cross. So, yes, rewarding
> behavior you want is great, but it has to, I believe, be balanced with
> teaching what you don't want. In my world, there are sometimes consequences
> for actions. Also, I think that once your dog starts to understand a task,
> phasing out the treats really has to happen, if you use them. And there's
> nothing wrong with using them to teach a behavior or task. But IMO, a
> food-obsessed dog with the "will work for food" sign sounds a little unsafe.
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Jul 8, 2014, at 7:50 PM, Vivianna <irishana at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> i personally do not use clicker training.
>>>>>> during convention one woman told me that she was using the click and
> treat if her dog did a traffic check. ok, i just don't get this. why would
> i ever want my dog to turn it's head towards me seeking a treat just after a
> traffic check? my dog should continue to look out for traffic?
>>>>>> another thing she told me was that dog was always seeking treats not
> only from her but from strangers, putting it's nose in their hands.
>>>>>> i'll stick with the traditional good old, good girl and lots of
> praise.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Vivianna
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Jul 8, 2014, at 5:30 PM, Buddy Brannan via nagdu
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This might help:
>>>>>>> http://www.sue-eh.ca/page24/page23/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The original levels are available for free, but you can buy the new
> edition for $25 in accessible formats. I have it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm not convinced that any one training method is *the* answer to
> everything, nor is one training philosophy correct to every situation or
> even every dog. There's value to be had with a variety of tools.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Jul 8, 2014, at 5:39 PM, Julie J. via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Daryl,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm not sure exactly what you mean by starting clicker training
> alone. I started using clicker training with Belle. I did read lots and
> lots of books. I had a couple of email lists specific to clicker training
> where I asked lots of questions. For a while I had a trainer I worked with
> by phone, but that didn't turn out so well. she was sighted and could only
> give sighted people instructions. I was too new to the concepts to be able
> to problem solve non visual ways myself. I was frustrated and gave it up
> for a short bit. that's when I found the email lists, which turned out to
> be much more helpful.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I live in a really small town, so there are no group classes or
> local trainers that use clicker training. I've always wanted to go to a
> weekend workshop on clicker, but those don't come anywhere close. All my
> connections to clicker knowledge have been through the computer. If that's
> what you mean by starting alone, then I think there are several folks on
> this list that fit that description.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You can totally do it yourself. Just read and get comfortable with
> the ideas. when you are ready start with the very basics of getting Jenny
> introduced to the concept of click means reward is coming. then move on to
> a hand touch. From there you can teach most anything. Just remember not to
> go too fast or lump too much in together. that's my biggest challenge.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Think of it like building a block tower. One block in the right
> place gets a click and a treat. Sure one block looks nothing like you want
> the finished tower, but it is the first step. Next time it's two blocks,
> and the next it's three...until she gets the to the finished behavior. At
> first it will seem really slow. That's because you are still fine tuning
> your technique and Jenny is learning to think differently. The time it
> takes to teach a completed task will become dramatically faster the more you
> use clicker.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> HTH
>>>>>>>> Julie
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Daryl Marie via nagdu
>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2014 2:09 PM
>>>>>>>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] Starting with clicker training?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> hi!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As I am moving away from the correction/choke collar, I am
> considering using clicker training in my partnership with Jenny. Has anyone
> started clicker training on their own? Any pointers? Dos and Don'ts? I know
> Raven posted www.clickertraining.com as a great resource, but it feel really
> really overwhelming!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Daryl and Jenny
>>>>>>>>
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