[nagdu] [nagdu' new dog, sniffing, and scavenging
Tami Jarvis
tami at poodlemutt.com
Wed Jul 30 17:50:38 UTC 2014
Daryl,
Those things you have to deal with on the fly because they never turn up
in training sessions can be frustrating... Until you start looking at
the triggers as training opportunities! So, see? Gizmo wasn't being an
obnoxious little brat, distracting your guide. He was giving you
training opportunities! Honestly, I still see dogs doing distracting
things that very way, since maintaining dog distraction training is an
ongoing thing. So instead of getting all mad that someone is doing
something to me because their dog is doing someting distracting, I just
enjoy my dog's lack of distraction or I remind her that she is working
and knows better than to be distracted. /shrug/
More generally, on the subject of switching from correction to positive
methods, I recently read an article that reminded me of that phase where
the behavior you are now not correcting increases. Do I remember which
article and where I found it? Sorry, no. The phrase that trainer used
was extinction something or other. In other words, the behavior that is
now being ignored will increase before becoming extinct in favor of the
new behavior for which you are rewarding. That can be really
frustrating, because it feels like you are now doing the right thing and
it is sooo not working. This is one reason I prefer to train my own
animals... I don't have to go through a bunch of that to convert them to
my handling methods for positively trained dogs, horses, whatever. This
doesn't mean I've never had to change my way of reacting to a behavior
I've been inadvertently reinforcing by giving it negative attention
without redirecting. It's completely maddening because I'm also having
to change my response to a behavior that is increasing in frequency and
intensity to get me to give the old response I am trying to change, and,
well... It's my own dang fault, so at least I can be mad at me and not
the dog, so that helps me ignore the behavior and focus on the the new
way of doing things. /lol/ Once the dog has discovered that doing the
replacement behavior gets attention and a positive reward, the unwanted
behavior will dwindle and become extinct rather quickly. Not so quickly,
if it is a self-rewarding like barking or scrounging, but even those
become easier to manage.
Tami
On 07/30/2014 06:41 AM, Daryl Marie via nagdu wrote:> Raven,
>
> Thank you for concisely putting into words what I have been trying to
articulate. While we may not always agree, I fully respect you and your
decisions and experience.
>
> I was very fortunate that Jenny was never in a kennel. She was with
her puppy raisers, and then she was boarded with a family while she was
doing guide dog training. The scrounging was a habit she picked up in
puppyhood and seemed to get out of during formal guide dog training, but
pretty much the instant the trainer left us, she started it up. It's
gotten loads better since we've been working on it (unfortunately most
of our training is done on the fly because she won't dive for the food
during planned training exercises); today she did get scroungy, so I had
to tell her to leave it, took whatever it ws away, and told her to move
on. She didn't, so told her no, sit. Once we were both calmer, on our
merry way!
>
> And yes, get to know your dog's posture. Jenny can be lightning quick
to scrounge, but most times I can tell that she's going to do it before
she does. I feel it and pull then slacken the harness handle as if to
hold her back, tell her to move forward, and off we go. It seems to work
for us, because she knows I will check if she's gotten a hold of
something, and most of the time she has not gotten it at all or dropped
it if she did get it.
>
> Raven, I hear you about dog distractions! yesterday, Gizmo, the
little dog downstairs at work, started barking at Jenny through the
door. Unfortunately, jenny responded in kind. Once we got upstairs, I
ate my lunch, and then we went down to do some training. Since this is
the first time we've had a dog-distraction session without a correction
collar, I was curious to see what would happen. So gizmo started barking
like crazy, Jenny got all tail-waggy and thrilled, and I said in a
bright voice to come this way (or something similar). I had a treat in
my hand, so when she did what I asked, I gave her the treat. Repeated
this process several times in different scenarios (coming in from
outside, or after a bit of time had passed), and each time she would
rather receive treats and praise than get into a barking/distracted
match with Gizmo. The last go-round, she did it without the treats.
>
> Now I just have to work with her on hubby-distraction! Wish me luck!
>
> Daryl
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Raven Tolliver via nagdu<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> To: Nicole Torcolini<ntorcolini at wavecable.com>, NAGDU Mailing List,
the National Association of Guide Dog Users<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wed, 30 Jul 2014 06:31:40 -0600 (MDT)
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] [nagdu' new dog, sniffing, and scavenging
>
> I think what happens to many dogs is they develop bad habits in the
> kennels. Sending a dog to a kennel for 4-6+ months after 1 to 1-1/2
> years of living in a house is similar to sending a child off to
> college after working hard to ingrain them with good habits and
> manners while they lived with their parents. The child will no longer
> have someone supervising the way they live and maintain
> themselves/their living space, so those good habits go to pot until
> they're in an environment or circumstance where they're expected to be
> more responsible and well-maintained.
> Obviously, the trainers work hard with the dogs' manners in-harness,
> but that one-on-one time is not as effective as it would be if the dog
> was living in a home. This is one of the reasons why I am so ra-ra
> kennel-free training. The larger schools can't do that, but it
> definitely would put a dent in the dogs coming out of the schools with
> bad habits.
> When I first got the Golden Guy, he would pick stuff up off the floor
> and out of low trash cans. My puppy-raisers said that it must have
> come from him being a kennel dog, and that they had ensured that he
> would not scavenge or beg. They told me to work on that with him to
> undo any bad habits he developed in the kennels. With a few training
> sessions after I returned to Michigan, I was able to remind him that
> he knew better.
> I have also seen dogs come out of the kennels eat their own feces,
> jump up on people or furniture inappropriately , and do other
> unacceptable behaviors.
>
> Corrections will not fix a habitual sniffer/scavenger, or any kind of
> habitual distraction. With a distraction like this, you need to
> address the problem actively rather than retroactively. Corrections
> are retroactive because you're addressing the inappropriate behavior
> after it has happened. That might be effective if the dog has not yet
> reaped the unintentional rewards of being distracted time and time
> again. Unfortunately, that's not the case.
> You need to be a step ahead of your dog. Learn their body language so
> that you know when your dog is about to go for something on the
> ground. This information is important. Now, you can catch your dog
> before they even act up. As I said in my earlier post, grab your dog's
> attention and give an alternative. Sniffing can't happen if the dog
> sits or keeps moving along. What I do with dogs is I start walking
> faster, bouncing the leash, and speaking in an excited voice. "Come
> on! Let's go, let's go!" The dog immediately refocuses and ignores the
> distraction.
> I tried corrections with the Golden Guy when I first got him. He has a
> moderate to high dog distraction. Corrections did nothing to help the
> situation. If anything, it probably made it worse. When I switched to
> positive methods, I was able to work with his distraction in a way
> that didn't leave me frustrated, and feeling as though I had not
> changed a thing. Positive methods made me think differently. What
> would I rather my dog do than go for another dog? Well
> I would like him to simply move past it. But we had to work our way up
> to that. I tried to get him to keep moving, but I couldn't get him to
> focus on his work. So I had to break it down into baby steps.
> First, I would just have him sit whenever another dog would pass us
> up. While he sat, I worked on getting his attention
> with my voice, sound cues, and treats. Once I could get his attention,
> then I reapproached moving past the dog. I first worked on this with
> him on-leash and out-of-harness. Then I added the harness in after he
> was able to move past dogs while just on-leash. Like I do with the
> other dogs I train, I would walk faster past the dog, speak to him to
> keep him focused: "Let's go, buddy. Good job. Good focus. focus,
> buddy. good work!" and pause to praise him up after we passed the dog
> because it's quite a feat! Now this does not work 100% of the time,,
> but his distraction is 80% better than it was when we started working
> together. And for those times when he will not cooperate, we just sit
> and wait it out, or I heel him past the dog. No corrections needed.
>
> On 7/29/14, Nicole Torcolini via nagdu<nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> >Sometimes, corrections followed by rewards can help stop a
behavior, but it
>> >sounds as though that is not the case for you. Is there anything in
>> >particular that he does when he sniffs? Are there certain things
that cause
>> >him to sniff more than others? Is there anything that you know will
get his
>> >attention? For example, it gets the attention of some dogs if you
just stop
>> >dead in your tracks and drop the harness handle. Did they tell you
what to
>> >do about the sniffing in class? I wonder if his puppy raisers let
him get
>> >away with sniffing.
>> >
>> >Nicole
>> >
>> >-----Original Message-----
>> >From: Danielle Sykora [mailto:dsykora29 at gmail.com]
>> >Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2014 6:21 AM
>> >To: Nicole Torcolini
>> >Subject: Re: [nagdu] [nagdu' new dog, sniffing, and scavenging
>> >
>> >Sorry it has taken me so long to respond. I agree with Raven. I
want my dog
>> >to work for the possibility of rewards, not to avoid correction. Yes,
>> >corrections temporarily stop a behavior but they don't fix it over
time.
>> >When I correct my dog for sniffing, he stops for the moment but
will start
>> >sniffing again a short time later. He has always been sniffy, even
during
>> >class.
>> >
>> >Danielle
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >On 7/27/14, Nicole Torcolini<ntorcolini at wavecable.com> wrote:
>>> >>Was he sniffy during class, or is this a new behavior?
>>> >>
>>> >>-----Original Message-----
>>> >>From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Danielle
>>> >>Sykora via nagdu
>>> >>Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2014 9:51 AM
>>> >>To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> >>Subject: [nagdu] [nagdu' new dog, sniffing, and scavenging
>>> >>
>>> >>Hi all,
>>> >>
>>> >>I returned home from GDF on Friday with my new dog, a male lab/golden
>>> >>cross named Thai. Since we have gotten home, I have begun to avoid
>>> >>using corrections, especially leash corrections. He tends to be quite
>>> >>sniffy, especially in places with a lot of food. A firm "leave it"
>>> >>usually is sufficient but it can be difficult to quickly get his
>> >attention.
>>> >>Also, he will scavenge for food and pick up dropped items which he
>>> >>really should not be eating. This behavior mostly occurs out of
>>> >>harness, but it is still undesirable. Any thoughts on decreasing
>>> >>sniffing and strengthening food refusal skills using positive
methods?
>>> >>
>>> >>Danielle
>>> >>
>>> >>_______________________________________________
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>>> >>m
>>> >>
>>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >_______________________________________________
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>
> -- Raven "if God didn't make it, don't eat it." - John B. Symes, D.V.M.
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