[nagdu] , dobermans.
Julie J.
julielj at neb.rr.com
Thu May 1 13:40:54 UTC 2014
Thanks! That's just about what the breeder said and the other Doberman
guide handlers I've talked to. I didn't consider a raincoat though. Have
to put that on the list. Meghan, her trainer, says Jetta has never barked.
Jetta is friendly with people, as in she's comfortable and accepting of
people, but does not ask for attention from others. That's what I need.
I do strongly prefer a dog who doesn't solicit attention. I'm not into the
meet and greet with random people on the street. I don't mind meeting new
people, I can just do without all the goo over the dog. I don't go into
client's homes for my work. I do have client's in my office, but I almost
never allow any interaction with the dog.
It's kind of funny. I work in the courthouse, with first time criminal
offenders. Because of the situation, I have had clients who think the dog
is a drug sniffing dog. Generally Monty is laying under my desk out of
harness, but they can't see that anyway. When I first meet a new client I
tell them there is a dog under the desk. Mostly Monty sleeps, but every now
and then he'll pop his head out and see who's there. I don't want to give
anyone a heart attack, so I figure announcing the dog is fair. Usually
that is all the discussion there is about the dog. He goes back to sleep
and I get to work with the new client. Most of them are really stressed
about the circumstances that landed them in my office, they really don't
care about the dog or my blindness. I don't think a Doberman will be any
problem in this setting.
When I first started working there, one of the probation officers used to
bring her Rottweiler to work. No one cared until there was a pile of poo on
the floor and that was the end of that. Her dog was quiet and seemed to be
well behaved. I didn't mind that she brought him at all. Too bad it didn't
work out so well.
The Sheriff's office is on the other side of the building and they have a
drug sniffing dog. I'm pretty sure she's a lab though. I never see her.
Anyway my work is not fussed about dogs and dogs with jobs are easily
accepted.
Thanks for the Doberman guide work info. Jetta will be my first Dobe.
Julie
-----Original Message-----
From: Vivianna
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2014 8:11 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Changing my Petting Policy, dobermans.
hi julie,
well, first of all, all dogs have their own personality most of all so what
i say may not be true at all for your dobbie.
they have a very short coat so will need a rain coat as well as a winter
coat if you are in a cold climate. also, since the coat is so short folks
can notice every little thing on the dog. but, they are super easy to
groom.
my dobbie was an intense worker but, not as outwardly intense as my
shepherds have been. she had absolutely no interest in strangers at all.
the ones that i have seen love warm places to snuggle up and sleep.
also, they are way less vocal than shepherds. no whining barking etc.
maybe a grumble or two but that's about it.
they were bred during world war I to work with human partners and bond with
them. their only job in existance is to please and work with their person.
not, herd, not hunt, not point, etc.
i would venture to say that, they are most definitely not for everyone. the
public is afraid of them and will get out of your way fast. every time you
get onto a train or buss you will have 4 seats. lol.
if you are one of those who likes dealing with the public and wants a dog to
get folks to talk to you. or, if you are one who wants to let all the girls
pet your dog, then don't get a dobbie.
if you go to clients homes or have them come into your office and want them
to make friends with your dog, don't get a doberman.
just my opinions. there are few of them for a reason. lol.
and, i must say, i feel the same in general abouth shepherds. that's why i
work with both breeds. heh.
now, let the contradictions begin. smiley.
i know there will be super friendly dobbies out there, i just have never
seen one. lol.
and, no matter how friendly it is, the public is afraid of them. i think
you may be asking for trouble if your friendly doberman starts trying to
solicit from strangers. haha.
Vivianna
On Apr 30, 2014, at 10:45 AM, "Julie J." <julielj at neb.rr.com> wrote:
> Vivianna,
>
> I'm sorry if any of my messages led you to believe I thought you were an
> unpleasant person. That was not my intention. I think there are a lot of
> factors that contribute to the attention a particular dog and handler get.
> I was just sharing what goes on in my tiny corner of the world.
>
> I think you are fairly new to the list also. Folks who have been around
> for a long time have heard some of the stories I've shared about this
> other woman and her dog. Truly one of the most difficult things I deal
> with is people thinking all service dog handlers are the same or have the
> same rules or interact with their dogs in the same way. She hits her dog.
> I don't. She screams at people if they look at her dog sideways. I
> appreciate being asked about the dog. Sure I don't always have the time
> or interest for lengthy personal conversations with random people, but
> talking to me directly is definitely preferred over being scared of me.
> That isn't a statement about anyone else, just me and the situation I find
> myself in.
>
> I tend to be a no nonsense person. I'm not very outgoing. My dogs aren't
> into greeting folks. To add to the mix I work in criminal justice. It
> all adds up, especially when you live in a small community where everyone
> knows everyone. I enjoy being able to go and do what I like without a
> lot of fuss about the dog or my blindness. Sometimes though it's hard,
> like when I'd really like to get to know people better or just have a nice
> relaxing time in a social setting.
>
> I'd love to hear more about your Doberman. How is their working style
> different from other breeds? did you encounter any difficulties because
> of the breed? Jetta, my Dobe, is coming home in a few months. I am very
> excited about working with her.
>
> Julie
>
>
>
> -----Original Message----- From: Vivianna
> Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2014 10:26 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Changing my Petting Policy
>
> hi all,
> with all this discussion and my posts about it. i just want to say that,
> even though i am very blunt, i am a really nice person, i really am. just
> ask folks who have met me. lol.
> i can say no with a smile on my face. i may have to put that smile there
> consciously but, i do it. i may say; i don't give out my dog's name
> because it's a working name, but, i can say it very nicely.
> i get the feeling that some of you think i am some big mean blind person
> with a chip on my shoulder because i don't want to interact with the
> public all day long.
> that is far from the truth.
> the only time i am harsh is if someone grabs me or my dog without
> permission. this is totally uncalled for and will not be tolerated.
> and, yes, i do think the breed of dog makes a huge difference in how much
> the public bothers you. i currently have a GSD and before her i had a
> doberman with cropped ears. nobody ever touched that dog, ever.
> i wish i could have her back again but, hey, at least she worked for me
> for 11 years.
> the GSD that io have now does not have any interest in soliciting
> attention from strangers . and, in the 2 and a half years that i have had
> her someone has tried to pet her twice.
> since, i prefer to be treated as a person and not have folks focus on the
> dog that just happens to have a blind woman at the end of the harness, i
> choose not to work with a more cute breed of dog. this, however, does not
> make me a bad person, just one who wishes to be treated like everybody
> else out there in the world.
> JMHO
>
> Vivianna
>
> On Apr 30, 2014, at 10:10 AM, "Julie J." <julielj at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>
>> Raven,
>>
>> My current guide is a lab and Boxer mix. Jetta, the Doberman, is
>> tentatively arriving mid August. In my experience very, very, very few
>> people correctly identify the breed of either of them. Jetta more so
>> than Monty, but she has natural ears which I guess makes her look not
>> like a Doberman. Odd, but there it is. Belle, Monty and Jetta are all
>> black dogs and fairly large. I think that makes a difference. Also none
>> of them have been into greeting people much. I think that shows in their
>> body language. My first guide, Tia, would look at people with her gooey
>> eyes and wag gently, which caused a lot of people to talk/pet/interact
>> with her.
>>
>> I think another factor for me is that the other service dog handler in my
>> tiny town is kind of unpleasant. I've heard lots and lots of stories
>> about negative encounters folks have had with her and her dog. One young
>> lady told me she was walking down the street whistling because it was a
>> nice day and she was enjoying it, when the unpleasant service dog
>> handler started screaming at her that she was distracting her dog. I
>> understand that whistling could be distracting to a dog, but I think
>> there are better ways to deal with the situation, realizing that
>> sometimes people whistle and it isn't all about distracting the dog all
>> the time. anyway, I think she has scared a lot of people off about guide
>> and service dogs.
>>
>> But I don't know, even when I travel I don't get a lot of anything about
>> the dog. I'm going out of town this weekend, so we'll see if me saying
>> it isn't a problem makes me look like a fool! that's usually how it
>> goes, say things are great and the universe will show you otherwise.
>> *smile*
>>
>> Julie
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message----- From: Raven Tolliver
>> Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2014 9:50 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Changing my Petting Policy
>>
>> I have learned that a name can be a very intimate thing to know about
>> a person, or a dog for that matter. I do not only give a fake name for
>> my dog, but in some situations, I also use an alias for myself. I have
>> experienced far too much stalkerish behavior and obsessive
>> questioning/attention-getting attempts to be so liberal with the
>> giving out of my dog's name.
>> I have trained my dog to ignore others making stupid noises at him.
>> My petting policy will change from dog to dog. It will just depend on
>> how much each dog is distracted by petting from strangers. The Golden
>> Guy is not distracted by it, so I allow it from time to time.
>> Julie, it may be possible that you don't get asked as often as others
>> because you use a Dobie as your guide. Correct me if I'm wrong.
>> I get asked most often by customers in grocery stores, and by people
>> at the transit station or on the bus.
>> Also, I'm totally with Vivianna on not wanting to interact with the
>> public so much. I just want to go on about my business most days,
>> rather than talk about my dog for half an hour. There is much more to
>> me than just my dog.
>> I understand that my dog is beautiful and irresistible, but at the
>> same time, we are not a spectacle for everyone to gawk at, swoon over,
>> and prattle on about. I am not an exhibit at some zoo or something, I
>> am a human being. I would appreciate it if I was treated with the same
>> dignity as others without a dog.
>>
>>
>> On 4/30/14, Larry D. Keeler <lkeeler at comcast.net> wrote:
>>> The not using the dogs name comes from the fact that some folks will
>>> call
>>> your dog while your working. I'me actually had this happen. People whom
>>> you
>>>
>>> don't know will often say hi or tell your dog to do things. The name
>>> thing
>>> is so that people whom you don't want calling your dog will be slightly
>>> less
>>>
>>> distracting to the dog. Also, I've had lots of folks who remember
>>> Holly's
>>> name but not mine. Sometimes I'm kind of annoyed by that. I, mostly
>>> don't
>>> use a different name except the Nose. I'll do that when I am around
>>> folks
>>> who I don't really want to hear her name. There is no right way to
>>> control
>>> petting and other human distractions. I take them individually and deal
>>> with
>>>
>>> them accordingly. If folks are being purposely ignorant, then I am as
>>> well.
>>>
>>> If they are just curious and really don't know, then I deal with that as
>>> well. Also, it depends on how many folks you meet in a day. Also, keep
>>> in
>>> mind that dogs like people are all different. Some like people more than
>>> others. I have a friend who went to a school, came home and after a
>>> couple
>>> of years was having issues with his dog. The main issue was that his dog
>>> was
>>>
>>> dragging him out in the street. Turns out that he was letting women pet
>>> his
>>>
>>> dog in the harrness and when women were walking on the opposite side of
>>> the
>>>
>>> street, he wanted to go for a visit. The behavior was corrected but I
>>> for
>>> one don't really want to take the chance of helping Holly develop bad or
>>> unsafe behaviors.
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Kristen" <kskristen at gmail.com>
>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2014 9:19 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Changing my Petting Policy
>>>
>>>
>>>> I agree with you completely; I'm having trouble understanding the
>>>> changing
>>>>
>>>> the name thing. My family calls Corvette Cory for short, and he has
>>>> already starting coming to that. You wouldn't want to confuse them
>>>> more
>>>> with a totally different name. And, as you said, the dog would still
>>>> know
>>>>
>>>> someone is talking to it. You still can give the correct name, but
>>>> politely ask them not to talk to your guide, which will educate them at
>>>> the
>>>>
>>>> same time.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Kristen
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Nicole Torcolini" <ntorcolini at wavecable.com
>>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>> Date sent: Tue, 29 Apr 2014 19:31:55 -0700
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Changing my Petting Policy
>>>>
>>>> Honestly, I don't get the name game. If you talk to or about a dog,
>>>> the
>>>> dog
>>>> is smart enough to know, regardless of if the name is used.
>>>> Furthermore,
>>>>
>>>> as
>>>> others have already pointed out, it only takes the dog so long to
>>>> figure
>>>> it
>>>> out if you use another name.
>>>> When people ask about the name of your dog, they are not trying to make
>>>> trouble. If you think that the person is going to use the name, then
>>>> you
>>>> could say something like, "My dog is named ..' but please don't talk to
>>>> him/her." Some people are going to talk to your dog regardless of what
>>>> you
>>>> say or if you give the name. I would rather give the name and have to
>>>> explain to the person than not give the name; otherwise, people will
>>>> never
>>>> learn. I have told a lot of people that my dog is named Lexia, many of
>>>> whom
>>>> were complete strangers who I probably will never see again, so it does
>>>> not
>>>> really matter. Only a few of the people with whom I interact on a
>>>> regular
>>>> basis talk to Lexia, and they only do it when I say it is okay to talk
>>>> to
>>>> her or when she is not in harness.
>>>> I usually let people pet Lexia in harness if they ask. Luckily, I have
>>>> not
>>>> had too many people try to pet her without asking. I usually do not
>>>> let
>>>> people pet her if we are standing up, especially if we are about to go
>>>> somewhere any minute. When people pet Lexia, she is in a sit or
>>>> preferably a
>>>> down position, and she stays by me. I do not allow her to crawl toward
>>>> the
>>>> person who is petting her. If she does, then I gently pull her back.
>>>> If
>>>>
>>>> the
>>>> behavior continues, then the visiting session is over.
>>>> I don't really like little kids petting Lexia, particularly the ones
>>>> who
>>>> get
>>>> excited as soon as they see her. However, on occasion, I do hear the
>>>> opposite where the child tells the parent that it is a working dog and
>>>> not
>>>> to bother it, which I find quite amusing.
>>>> I used to have a sign to the harness handle. I don't remember what it
>>>> said.
>>>> It did not really help. The people who want to pet your dog are going
>>>> to
>>>>
>>>> pet
>>>> you dog regardless of if there is a sign, so the best that you can do
>>>> is
>>>> ask
>>>> them not to pet your dog and do something, such as move away, if they
>>>> don't
>>>> listen. You can also try to train your dog to ignore people.
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Darla Rogers
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2014 6:24 PM
>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Changing my Petting Policy
>>>>
>>>> Dear Rox'e,
>>>>
>>>> Thank you so much for sharing a whole different perspective on
>>>> petting and setting up one's dog to respond to what you need and not
>>>> what
>>>> you don't, and it surely helps to have cooperative coworkers who
>>>> understand
>>>> and support what you are doing.
>>>> Darla & Happy Huck
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of The Pawpower
>>>> Pack
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2014 10:19 AM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Changing my Petting Policy
>>>>
>>>> I have never given a false name for my dogs. I would think they'd just
>>>> hear
>>>> me cueing my dog using her real name and would know it anyway. Also,
>>>> I'd
>>>> probably forget and give different names to the same person. lol.
>>>> Part of the work I do with my dogs is setting they up for this exact
>>>> situation. If someone calls Laveau's name and she does not know them
>>>> well,
>>>> she will ignore it. If she knows them, she will let me know that
>>>> someone
>>>>
>>>> we
>>>> know is calling her and I can choose to have her take me to them or
>>>> just
>>>> go
>>>> on our way.
>>>> Soleil is learning the same skills, and my friends, coworkers and
>>>> interpreters help me by setting up situations like are being described.
>>>> Since I can't hear, I can't police Soleil's interaction with the public
>>>> like
>>>> a hearing person. I have to trust my dog to be able to work through
>>>> distractions like that.
>>>>
>>>> Rox and the kitchen Bitches:
>>>> Mill'E, Laveau, Soleil
>>>> Pawpower4me at gmail.com
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>
>>>> On Apr 29, 2014, at 9:35 AM, "Larry D. Keeler" <lkeeler at comcast.net
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Have not changed my pet policy. I'll tell folks I know her name and
>>>> sometimes I'll take her harrness off so she can interact with others.
>>>> However, I usually ignore folks whom I don't know. I don't make up
>>>> names
>>>> often although I have been known to.
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Raven Tolliver"
>>>> <ravend729 at gmail.com
>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2014 10:23 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Changing my Petting Policy
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Oh yes! It annoys me to no end when people ask what my dog's name is.
>>>> I just tell them his name is K, or the most comical one I've been
>>>> using is Celestial Seasonings. Got the idea from a woman whose
>>>> golden's name is Lipton. So cute. But I tell people Celestial
>>>> Seasonings, and no one is inclined to even call him. Probably 'cause
>>>> they know I'm bs-ing them. Most of my acquaintances and classmates
>>>> here on campus don't even know the Golden Guy's name.
>>>>
>>>> On 4/29/14, minh ha <minh.ha927 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> I was very strict about not letting anyone pet Viva when I first
>>>> came home with her, but I've relaxed my stance since then. Obviously
>>>> I don't let anyone touch her when we're working, but if we're just
>>>> sitting somewhere and someone asks to pet her, I will generally let
>>>> them. I do tell them that if she gets too excited, then the meet and
>>>> greet is over. it's also a great way for me to teach her
>>>> self-control and obedience since I'll make her lay down and stay.
>>>>
>>>> Minh
>>>>
>>>> On 4/29/14, The Pawpower Pack <pawpower4me at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> With Soleil, I have used petting as a practice time for self control.
>>>> She
>>>> loves people, and right at first, I knew that I was going to just
>>>> have to restrict all petting, or use the petting as an exercise.
>>>> Since I'm Deafblind, people tend to just pet because they are not
>>>> getting my attention with me by asking unless I'm with a hearing
>>>> person.
>>>> So if I have time to allow petting, I first tell her down. I tell
>>>> the person wanting to pet that she can only be pet in a down and
>>>> that if she gets up, they are to stop, I thank them for helping me
>>>> with her training, so they feel good. They pet her and then in mid
>>>> pet I ask her to come away and touch my hand and click and treat.
>>>> She is a lab, so would rather eat than lay and get petted. And her
>>>> getting up ends the session. If people pet without asking she will
>>>> turn to me.
>>>> My coworkers and friends also help in this exercise as well.
>>>> Because I'm Deafblind and a lot of my friends are deafblind, and I
>>>> work with deafblind children, she has to learn to be touched
>>>> without coming unhinged with joy. Deafblind people are a pretty
>>>> tactile lot and if a deafblind child has never seen a guide dog,
>>>> they can look at her-- with their
>>>> hands--
>>>> and learn. So far, Soleil's doing really well!
>>>>
>>>> Rox and the kitchen Bitches:
>>>> Mill'E, Laveau, Soleil
>>>> Pawpower4me at gmail.com
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>
>>>> On Apr 29, 2014, at 6:41 AM, "Julie J." <julielj at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Generally I just say, "No, but thank you for asking." I smile and
>>>> make it seem like them asking was a wonderful thing. Then I move
>>>> on. Standing there will encourage a discussion or debate or
>>>> whatever, moving on indicates that you don't want to discuss your
>>>> no petting rule and it also reinforces that you need to get stuff
>>>> done and don't have time for petting.
>>>>
>>>> I do allow petting on occasion. If I do I let the person know
>>>> it's up to Monty if he wants to be petted. I give Monty his
>>>> release cue and let him approach if he wants. Usually he will
>>>> give the person a perfunctory sniff and he's done. Every now and
>>>> then he will back away from the person, which is kind of
>>>> embarrassing, but they get it that he doesn't want to be petted.
>>>> He's not very into meet and greet with people though, so this
>>>> works.
>>>>
>>>> Last week I was in the grocery store and there was a Mom with
>>>> about four kids. The kids wanted to pet Monty and asked their
>>>> Mom. Usually parents just say the dog is working and leave it
>>>> alone, but this Mom went on a complete tirade. I thought the kids
>>>> were perfectly well behaved in asking their Mom first if they
>>>> could approach me to ask if they could pet, but Mom really lit
>>>> into them. Then she was on to another topic and how horrible the
>>>> kids were and on and on and on. So about four isles later I
>>>> asked one of the kids if he would like to pet the dog. It made
>>>> the kids day. I can't remember the last time I've offered petting
>>>> to a kid, but I really felt bad for them.
>>>>
>>>> When I talk to people about guide dogs or if I'm doing a
>>>> presentation or something, I always stress that dogs are different
>>>> and people are different, but asking is always okay. the answer
>>>> might be no but politely asking and respecting the answer is good.
>>>> It's interesting that I rarely have issues with kids. It's adults
>>>> that have issues with self control.
>>>>
>>>> Julie
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Darla Rogers
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2014 1:36 AM
>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Changing my Petting Policy
>>>>
>>>> Thank you Raven and Michael; I believe, and several others have
>>>> also states this practice, just not to allow it while we are out
>>>> working.
>>>> I don't owe the general public anything; if they want to pet a
>>>> dog, the shelters are crying for volunteers to socialize their
>>>> dogs; on the other hand, if it raises money for my school. <tongue
>>>> firmly in cheek> Very Gratefully, Darla & Handsome Huck
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Michael
>>>> Hingson
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2014 12:40 AM
>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Changing my Petting Policy
>>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> I do not permit anyone to pet Africa while she is in harness. If
>>>> people
>>>> want to pet her and I have the time I will remove her harness and
>>>> then allow petting. If I do not have time I politely explain that
>>>> while the harness is on she is working and cannot be petted and
>>>> that I do not have time to remove it now. Especially when people
>>>> go along with my wishes I thank them very much. If people still
>>>> insist on petting Africa I will get more stern.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Michael Hingson
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Darla
>>>> Rogers
>>>> Sent: Monday, April 28, 2014 10:22 PM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>> Users
>>>> Subject: [nagdu] Changing my Petting Policy
>>>>
>>>> Hi everyone,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The Handsome Huck is a people magnet and peo9ple are
>>>> magnets for him; there is some petting--last time going through a
>>>> revolving door--and I used to let him sit and be petted, but I
>>>> don't believe
>>>> this
>>>> is
>>>> in the best interest of our working relationship?
>>>>
>>>> Any ideas? Strategies? Explanations?
>>>>
>>>> Darla & Mister Socialite
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Darla J. Rogers
>>>>
>>>> djrogers0628 at gmail.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> nagdu:
>>>>
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>>>> hingson.com
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
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>>>> gmail.com
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the
>>>> dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was
>>>> vanity:
>>>> but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on
>>>> their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Raven
>>>>
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>>
>>
>> --
>> Raven
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>>
>> -----
>> No virus found in this message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Version: 2012.0.2247 / Virus Database: 3722/6917 - Release Date: 04/30/14
>>
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>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2012.0.2247 / Virus Database: 3722/6917 - Release Date: 04/30/14
>
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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.2247 / Virus Database: 3722/6917 - Release Date: 04/30/14
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