[nagdu] On Ownership

Sat May 3 12:35:14 UTC 2014

As someone who has had other conditions all her life and has been
successfully working with guide dogs since 1975, I'm here to say that it
isn't BS. I've never been given a dog without having to prove I could use it
for lack of a better word. Even this last time, for which I'm in training
now. I've participated in regular classes with minimal accommodations for my
other physical needs I bust my rear the same as my 

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Raven Tolliver
Sent: Friday, May 02, 2014 2:32 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Usersbind but
not otherwise disablein off hours. I've worked hard to be a confident guide
dog andler and I've worked hard to give my dogs a good working and home
life. It's nMy dogs do make my life better because I have a reason to keep
active, even more so now that working from home ever been handed to me
because someone wants to try to make my miserable life better. . I've taken
public transportation, walked to work, now I work from home and wbody has
yet given me a dog out of pity. I've worked for it and I've earned the right
to graduate and have developed strong partnerships with my dogs. My dogs are
not little pacifiers, they are working partners and loving companions and
have never been given to me just to make my life better.

Sherry

fifty hours a week could tend to isolate me. I have a condition that should
have done much more severe damage than it has already,  but I'm still mobile
thirty years longer than doctors expected, because I have always been
committed to getting out and working my dogs and letting them do what they
have been trained to do. My condition has changed and worsened over the
years, but I'm still out there, and nalk to coffeeshops and other
destinations d classmates. I go home and get out and work my dog
Subject: Re: [nagdu] On Ownership

Daryl,
O&M instructors and the field reps from guide dog schools decide the
objective standards for potential guide dog travelers.
Sad to say, but these standards that should be objective are
subjective on some levels. What I mean is, some types of people are
given preferential treatment. In my experience, it has primarily been
college students and people with multiple conditions. The staff see
promise in these people and want so badly to improve these people's
lives or make things work, so they let a bunch of bs fly. It doesn't
work out for long.

On 5/2/14, Daryl Marie <crazymusician at shaw.ca> wrote:
> This begs the question... what are considered "acceptable" O&M skills and
> those that would be deemed unacceptable for guide dog training?  Who makes
> those determinations?  How objective are the criteria?  Who decides what
is
> an O&M weaker area that needs improvement and what's a lost cause?
>
> Curious,
>
> Daryl and Jenny
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Larry D. Keeler <lkeeler at comcast.net>
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Fri, 02 May 2014 14:25:41 -0600 (MDT)
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] On Ownership
>
> Raven, I have seen that as well! I've seen folks who couldn't find there
way
>
> out of a paper bag not only getting threw but recieving there dogs!
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Raven Tolliver" <ravend729 at gmail.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, May 02, 2014 2:08 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] On Ownership
>
>
>> Here's the excuse for the piss-poor ownership policies. A lot of
>> schools will just accept almost anyone to come and train to use a dog.
>> This is sad but true. After entering the world of guide dog travelers,
>> I have seen people get accepted to different schools, and wonder how
>> on God's green earth those people were deemed promising guide dog
>> travelers. This is not because they seemed like they would be abusive,
>> but because they had unbelievably poor O&M skills, because they
>> encouraged and allowed their dogs to do inappropriate behaviors,
>> because they were careless and neglectful right off the bat,, and so
>> on. Also, schools match people with dogs and send them home with that
>> dog, knowing at the end of the first week that the team is not a good
>> match by any stretch. People are matched with dogs that are too slow,
>> too fast, too high-strung, highly distracted, you name it. These
>> schools want to give people or the dogs the benefit of the doubt, and
>> end up sending these people home with dogs, then going out to get the
>> dogs 1, 3, or 6 months later.
>> What needs to happen is that every school grant ownership upon
>> graduation, and change their application processes.
>> Also, I will admit I don't approve of the ownership policy of the
>> program I attended. However, I was not willing to sacrifice my other
>> criteria for a school and a dog just to have ownership. There are
>> schools that give ownership upon graduation, and at the same time use
>> practices that I eschew, or they don't meet my personal requirements.
>> Obviously, ownership was less important to me than the other things I
>> wanted in both a school and a dog.
>>
>>
>> On 5/2/14, Julie J. <julielj at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>> Do any of the programs do criminal background checks?  What about the
>>> references?  Is a reference letter submitted or are these people called
>>> and
>>>
>>> asked questions?
>>>
>>> I feel that the programs should use whatever means necessary to assess
>>> the
>>> suitability of a particular person to have a dog and then let them have
>>> the
>>>
>>> dog.  If there is some concern that the person won't properly take care
>>> of
>>> the dog, then that person shouldn't get one.  Once the person has the
>>> dog,
>>> it's too late to prevent abuse or neglect.   Ownership or no ownership
>>> isn't
>>>
>>> going to change the condition of the dog.
>>>
>>> The only way that ownership can influence how people act toward their
dog
>>>
>>> is
>>>
>>> if it's used as a threat.  If you don't do what we say, then we'll
>>> repossess
>>>
>>> your dog.  the thing with this approach is that it only works on folks
>>> who
>>> would have taken proper care of the dog regardless of the ownership
>>> policy.
>>>
>>> People who do bad things are going to do bad things regardless of the
>>> rules.
>>>
>>> An ownership policy isn't going to prevent abuse, any more than domestic
>>> abuse laws stop spouses from hitting each other.    People who don't
>>> commit
>>>
>>> abuse don't do it because of a law, they are non abusers because they
>>> feel
>>> it's the right way to act.
>>>
>>> I'd really like to know what the actual reason is for the various
>>> schools
>>> ownership policies.  I've heard obesity, abuse, better follow up, being
>>> able
>>>
>>> to place the dog after retirement, better service and all other manner
>>> of
>>> nonsense.  It doesn't make any sense to me.  How does the ownership
>>> policy
>>> affect the school's ability to provide good service?  It smells like an
>>> excuse to me.
>>>
>>> It would be interesting to see solid statistics comparing things like
>>> obesity rates, abuse, time between a follow up request and the provision
>>>
>>> of
>>>
>>> service and overall success rates between programs that retain ownership
>>>
>>> and
>>>
>>> those that don't.  My hunch is that there is no correlation between
>>> ownership and these items.  I think the better indicator is the quality
>>> of
>>> the applicant screening process, and the quality of the training at the
>>> program
>>>
>>> Julie
>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
>> --
>> Raven
>>
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>
>
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-- 
Raven

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