[nagdu] On Ownership
Star Gazer
pickrellrebecca at gmail.com
Sat May 3 14:11:20 UTC 2014
What about end user? We used that term all the time in my work as a systems engineer.
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kristeen Hughes
Sent: Saturday, May 3, 2014 8:15 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] On Ownership
I have always had so mch trouble with that word! I'm glad that someone else takes a similar view. There has to be a better word out there in the whole of English language than "consumer" I always have a mental picture of a bunch of little furry creatures gnawing away at something and wanting more and more. I do not aspire to that, thank you.
Kristeen & Mendle
On May 2, 2014, at 8:23 PM, KARL 8422 <karl8422 at roadrunner.com> wrote:
> Yeah, let's look at the whole root of the word "consumer", shall we?
> con·sume
> [kuhn-soom] Show IPA
> verb (used with object), con·sumed, con·sum·ing.
> 1.to destroy or expend by use; use up.
> 2.to eat or drink up; devour.
> 3.to destroy, as by decomposition or burning: Fire consumed the forest.
> 4.to spend (money, time, etc.) wastefully.
> 5.to absorb; engross: consumed with curiosity.
> verb (used without object), con·sumed, con·sum·ing.
> 6.to undergo destruction; waste away.
> 7.to use or use up consumer goods.
> Origin:
> 1350–1400; Middle English (< Middle French consumer ) < Latin
> consūmere, equivalent to con- con- + sūmere to take up (perhaps <
> *suzm- < *subzm- <
> *subs- ( e ) m-, equivalent to subs-, variant of sub- sub- + emere
> to take, buy)
>
> Synonyms
> 1. exhaust, deplete. 4. squander, dissipate.
>
> I will never, EVER consider myself a "consumer" and I think it's
> horrible and tragic that such a nomenclature is being actively touted
> embraced by such an august organisation. I am not product, I am not
> data and I am not simply one who takes. The very act of consumption
> involves taking without balanced return. Disgusting and abhorrent.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Marion
> Gwizdala
> Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 12:03 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] On Ownership
>
> Craig, One paradigm I think we need to shift is that the training
> program is giving us something for nothing. Training programs solicit
> funds from the general public as 501(c)(3) corporations. As such, they
> are accountable to the public. Donors contribute to training programs
> because this is a way they can better the lives of those they wish to
> help, since they have no direct ability to do so otherwise. In short,
> the training programs receive contributions from the public with the
> expressed intention of using those funds to enhance our lives. If it
> were not for the blind and their assertions they are helping us, where
> would the 6-figure salaries of the CEOs and the less significant salaries of the staff come from?
>
> As it true with any economy except that of a guide dog training
> program and some other disabvility services, consumers satisfaction is
> the driving force. Until we see ourselves as consumers with all the
> power that term conveys, we will continue to be treated as second-class citizens.
>
> Fraternally yours,
> Marion Gwizdala
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Craig Heaps
> Sent: Friday, May 02, 2014 12:24 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] On Ownership
>
> Michael:
>
> I understand the points you're making, and certainly don't think it's
> simply one way or the other.
>
> However, when the school accepted me, I also accpted the school. I
> went to GDB knowing the ownership policy. I took all the things they
> gave me for free, knowing it came with the stiuplation that I would
> not own the dog for at least a year, if ever.
>
> I don't know of another situation other than service dogs where
> someone hands over to you a highly trained, living, breathing being
> for your benefit at no charge. Then regularly comes to provide
> extended instruction and guidance at my home or work place. I find it
> hard to complain about the conditions they put on that.
>
> I believe the schools have every right to withhold ownership of the
> dogs for however long they choose. I do not expect them to be
> infallible in their screening or training. And if they feel they need
> to retain ownership for a time as a check on thier own fallibility, I'm ok with that.
>
> Perhaps I'm less sensitive to perceived paternalism. My sense of
> gratitude might have overwhelmed it.
>
> Craig
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Michael Hingson" <info at michaelhingson.com>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, May 02, 2014 9:09 AM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] On Ownership
>
>
>> Craig,
>>
>> I hear you, but the school did accept you and you accepted the school
>> and its techniques. You take a chance that all the processes and
>> procedures of the school will work for you. There is no guarantee in
>> life. We should be judged by the same criteria as others.
>>
>> The Leader Dog example is as graphic as it gets. The claim is, they
>> said, that they changed their policy simply because school management
>> said it saw an increase in dog obesity. So why does such an increase
>> justify how they treat dog ownership by the handler? The fact is
>> that it does not.
>>
>> The schools always have recourse to remove a mistreated dog from an
>> environment. Animal control, the courts, and the law should apply
>> here just as in any other case. Why should schools have an advantage
>> and an extra opportunity to intimidate? Schools have misused a lack
>> of ownership by handlers to intimidate them make no mistake.
>>
>> No, not granting immediate ownership is paternalistic. If the
>> schools train properly, if they do a thorough job of assessing the
>> incoming student and later the team performance during training, and
>> if the school personnel is confident in its own abilities to evaluate
>> and if the staff has faith in blind people then granting ownership
>> immediately is a no brainer.
>>
>>
>> Best,
>>
>>
>> Michael Hingson
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Craig
>> Heaps
>> Sent: Friday, May 02, 2014 08:49 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] On Ownership
>>
>> I confess I see it differently. The guide dogs schools have invested
>> tens of thousands of dollars into breeding and training the dogs. I
>> don't know how the others work, but GDB provided free room and board
>> for two weeks to me, trained me for free, and provided my dog for
>> free for my use when I graduated. So, while I have an obviours stake
>> in the dog and my relationship with him (or her), the school has an
>> incredible responsibility for the dog.
>>
>> They accepted me on the basis of an applicaton and a home interview.
>> While
>> I'm sure they did their due diligence, there's no way they could know
>> my ultimate success or failure wiht a dog in that process plus the
>> two weeks I spent with them for training. If I should prove to be
>> any one of a number of things -- incompetent, negligent, cruel,
>> psychotic, neurotic, probiotic (sorry, I got caught up in the rythm
>> of the thing)
>> -- what recourse would they have to rescue the dog from me?
>>
>> GDB allows me to apply for owership after a year. I'm a couple
>> months away from that anniversary and I don't know what I'll do. It
>> really makes no difference to me. I'm holding Chase's harness handle
>> every day. I buy his food and feed him. I buy the plastic bags and
>> pick up after him. He sleeps next to my bed. In real, practical
>> terms, I don't see what difference it makes.
>>
>> I tend to think of it as responsible rather than paternalistic on the
>> part of the school.
>>
>> Craig and Chase (who technically belongs to Guide Dogs for the Blind)
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Marion Gwizdala" <blind411 at verizon.net>
>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Friday, May 02, 2014 6:31 AM
>> Subject: [nagdu] On Ownership
>>
>>
>>> It is my opinion that the failure to grant ownership upon completion
>>> of training is founded in the underlying belief that blind people
>>> are incapable of caring for a dog and must prove their ability to do
>>> so before they are afforded this fundamental right! No matter how it
>>> is couched, such a policy is paternalistic!
>>>
>>> Fraternally yours,
>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Ray
>>> Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2014 9:30 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Attention: New Leader Dog Ownership Policy
>>>
>>> Well, it does have to do with ownership policy. The implemented it
>>> because guide dogs were obese; they lowered it because blind
>>> graduates were starting to do better because the obesity rate is
>>> down. Do you think the obesity rate in dogs should have anything to
>>> do with ownership? What I was saying is, if you have to wait one
>>> minute for that reason, then it seems you are being treated as if
>>> you are not capable of good judgment. My point was that people with
>>> pets don't have to wait a year or two to see if their dogs are going
>>> to be obese or not.
>>>
>>> Cindy
>>>
>>> On May 1, 2014, at 7:37 PM, Nicole Torcolini
>>> <ntorcolini at wavecable.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> No, I don't think that ownership is the way to solve the problem,
>>>> but, if you looked at the average life expectancy of the breeds
>>>> that are used as guide/service dogs for pet versus service/guide
>>>> dog, you would probably find that, between a higher level of
>>>> physical activity, more attention to weight, and more attention to
>>>> health in general, service/guide dogs live longer than pets. And
>>>> yes, being obese is bad for the health of a dog. Obesity is a
>>>> slightly different problem in dogs than in humans. Humans know that
>>>> we are going to get our next meal. Even though dogs have been
>>>> domesticated for a long time, they still go on the instinct that
>>>> they don't know when their next meal will be and therefore eat
>>>> anything you put in front of them to the point of even making
>>>> themselves sick. But, back to my original point, no,
>>> this is not something that has anything to do with an ownership policy.
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy
>>>> Ray
>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2014 5:23 PM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Attention: New Leader Dog Ownership Policy
>>>>
>>>> Think about it. How many pet dogs are obese? You must know that
>>>> lots of them are because people over feed the dogs-table scraps,
>>>> ice cream, whipped cream, whatever. So I ask you, how many pet dogs
>>>> are
> obese?
>>>> Probably they suffer the same problem as people. Many of us are
>>>> over fed,
>>> too.
>>>>
>>>> Cindy
>>>>
>>>> On May 1, 2014, at 7:12 PM, Nicole Torcolini
>>>> <ntorcolini at wavecable.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I don't quite understand what you meant. Are you saying that a lot
>>>>> of pet dogs are obese or not many are obese?
>>>>>
>>>>> Nicole
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy
>>>>> Ray
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2014 2:16 PM
>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: Attention: New Leader Dog Ownership
>>>>> Policy
>>>>>
>>>>> I think this is laughable. How many pet dogs are obese? Isn't it
>>>>> as unhealthy for them? Their owners aren't required to wait two
>>>>> years before applying for ownership of the dog.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cindy Lou
>>>>>
>>>>> On Apr 30, 2014, at 4:06 PM, Marion Gwizdala
>>>>> <blind411 at verizon.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear All,
>>>>>> I would like to comment on this message as president of the
>>>>>> National
>>>>>
>>>>>> Association of Guide Dog Users. As this message states, Leader
>>>>>> Dogs for the Blind changed its ownership policy around April of
>>>>>> 2007. In July of that year, I presided at my first NAGDU annual
>>>>>> meeting as Vice President of the organization. During our
>>>>>> meetings, Leader was provided an opportunity to share an update
>>>>>> with our membership, as has been our custom for quite some time.
>>>>>> One of the pieces of information Leader failed to mention was
>>>>>> their change in ownership policy. In August of 2007, I called
>>>>>> Leader and spoke with Rod Haneline about this apparent oversight.
>>>>>> At that time, Mr. Haneline advised me that the change in
>>>>>> ownership policy was in response to the negative attention the
>>>>>> case of Craig Miller who kicked his Leader Dog, Inky to death in
>>>>>> a drunken rage had garnered. There are a number of challenges to
>>>>>> this explanation. One major challenge is that, at the time of the
>>>>>> incident, Mr. Miller had had his dog for more than the two years
>>>>>> the new ownership policy provided for. The other major challenge
>>>>>> is that there is no way to predict such behavior and no
>>>>>> restriction of ownership would
>>>>> have made a difference.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> During last year's meeting, the question about their ownership
>>>>> policy
>>>>>> was posed to Leader again and this was when the issue of obesity
>>>>>> was brought up. Though this sound like a reasonable explanation,
>>>>>> no objective evidence that an obesity problem exists has ever
>>>>>> been offered. Now the policy has been changed to one year because
>>>>>> the obesity rates have gone down. Still, no objective evidence
>>>>>> has been offered that there is a problem, in spite of the
>>>>>> assertion that the rates are lower. Though I would like to
>>>>>> believe those who tender such an argument have evidence to
>>>>>> support their argument, as a professional who relies upon
>>>>>> research to guide my practice,I am trained to be skeptical of
>>>>>> unsupported claims. As of yet, I have seen no evidence of an
>>>>>> obesity problem among guide dogs. If there was a problem and now
>>>>>> the problem is less, let us see the
>>>>>> pre- post-study evidence! While we are at it, let's also see a
>>>>>> correlative study of those programs who transfer ownership and
>>>>>> those who do not so we can ascertain if there is a difference
>>>>>> between the two groups. Here is an interesting statistic I would
>>>>>> like to share with you to drive home the point: 87% of all
>>>>>> statistics are made up on the spot! Of course, that's a cynical
>>>>> statement, but I think you get the point!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Marion Gwizdala, President
>>>>>> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc.
>>>>>> National Federation of the Blind
>>>>>> (813) 626-2789
>>>>>> (888) 624-3841 (Hotline)
>>>>>> President at nagdu.org
>>>>>> http://www.nagdu.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>> High expectations create unlimited potential for the blind!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>>>>> William Vandervest
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2014 10:56 AM
>>>>>> To: the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] Fw: Attention: New Leader Dog Ownership Policy
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There are none so blind as those who will not see
>>>>>>
>>>>>> William and LD Lynard
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: Leader Dogs for the Blind
>>>>>> To: timelord09 at att.net
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2014 9:31 AM
>>>>>> Subject: Attention: New Leader Dog Ownership Policy
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear Graduate,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Leader Dogs for the Blind is announcing that effective
>>>>>> immediately we are reducing our transfer of ownership policy from
>>>>>> two years to one year
>>>>> for
>>>>>> our guide dog clients (with the exception of clients from Spain
>>>>>> and
>>>>> Brazil,
>>>>>> who follow their local organization's procedures).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The previous policy that required clients to apply for
>>>>>> ownership
>>>>> after
>>>>>> working with their dog for two years was put in place in 2007 to
>>>>>> address
>>>>> the
>>>>>> growing number of working Leader Dogs who were overweight or obese.
>>>>>> "The reason for the change is that over the past seven years,
>>>>>> this problem has diminished as our clients have become more
>>>>>> proactive at regulating their dogs' weight," said Will Henry,
>>>>>> Leader Dog director of
>>>> client services.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The new policy grants automatic ownership, without the need to
>>>>>> apply, to clients one year after their graduation date if they
>>>>>> are in good
>>>>> standing
>>>>>> (not on probation, and with no complaints on file).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Current clients (in good standing) who have had their Leader
>>>>>> Dog longer than one year will receive automatic ownership as of
>>>>>> May 1, 2014.
>>>>>> Clients (in good standing) who received their Leader Dog after
>>>>>> May 1,
>>>>>> 2013 will receive automatic ownership one year after their
>>>>>> graduation
>>>> date.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you have questions about the ownership of your Leader Dog,
>>>>>> please contact your client services coordinator at 888-777-5332.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>> Leader Dogs for the Blind
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You are receiving this message because you have shared your email
>>>>>> address with Leader Dogs for the Blind. To ensure that you
>>>>>> continue receiving our emails, please add us to your address book
>>>>>> or
> safe list.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Unsubscribe or manage your email preferences | Review our Privacy
>>>>>> Policy
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Leader Dogs for the Blind, 1039 S. Rochester Rd., Rochester
>>>>>> Hills, MI
>>>>> 48307
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Forward email
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This email was sent to timelord09 at att.net by
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>>>>>> Update Profile/Email Address | Instant removal with
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>>>>>>
>>>>>> Leader Dogs for the Blind | 1039 S. Rochester Rd. |
>>>>>> Rochester Hills | MI | 48309
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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