[nagdu] On Ownership

Marion Gwizdala blind411 at verizon.net
Sat May 3 18:21:20 UTC 2014


Rebecca,
	I guess that would work, too! However, there would be some naysayers that would say they don't use the end and refer to another irrelevant definition to oppose that term, as well!(grin)

Marion



-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Star Gazer
Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2014 10:11 AM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] On Ownership

What about end user? We used that term all the time in my work as a systems engineer. 

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kristeen Hughes
Sent: Saturday, May 3, 2014 8:15 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] On Ownership

I have always had so mch trouble with that word! I'm glad that someone else takes a similar view. There has to be a better word out there in the whole of English language than "consumer" I always have a mental picture of a bunch of little furry creatures gnawing away at something and wanting more and more. I do not aspire to that, thank you.

Kristeen & Mendle
 
On May 2, 2014, at 8:23 PM, KARL 8422 <karl8422 at roadrunner.com> wrote:

> Yeah, let's look at the whole root of the word "consumer", shall we? 
> con·sume
> [kuhn-soom] Show IPA
> verb (used with object), con·sumed, con·sum·ing.
> 1.to destroy or expend by use; use up.
> 2.to eat or drink up; devour.
> 3.to destroy, as by decomposition or burning: Fire consumed the forest.
> 4.to spend (money, time, etc.) wastefully.
> 5.to absorb; engross: consumed with curiosity.
> verb (used without object), con·sumed, con·sum·ing.
> 6.to undergo destruction; waste away.
> 7.to use or use up consumer goods.
> Origin:
> 1350–1400; Middle English  (< Middle French consumer ) < Latin 
> consūmere, equivalent to con- con- + sūmere  to take up (perhaps <
> *suzm-  < *subzm-  <
> *subs- ( e ) m-,  equivalent to subs-,  variant of sub- sub- + emere 
> to take, buy)
> 
> Synonyms
> 1. exhaust, deplete. 4. squander, dissipate.
> 
> I will never, EVER consider myself a "consumer" and I think it's 
> horrible and tragic that such a nomenclature is being actively touted 
> embraced by such an august organisation. I am not product, I am not 
> data and I am not simply one who takes. The very act of consumption 
> involves taking without balanced return. Disgusting and abhorrent.
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Marion 
> Gwizdala
> Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 12:03 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] On Ownership
> 
> Craig, One paradigm I think we need to shift is that the training 
> program is giving us something for nothing. Training programs solicit 
> funds from the general public as 501(c)(3) corporations. As such, they 
> are accountable to the public. Donors contribute to training programs 
> because this is a way they can better the lives of those they wish to 
> help, since they have no direct ability to do so otherwise. In short, 
> the training programs receive contributions from the public with the 
> expressed intention of using those funds to enhance our lives. If it 
> were not for the blind and their assertions they are helping us, where 
> would the 6-figure salaries of the CEOs and the less significant salaries of the staff come from?
> 
> 	As it true with any economy except that of a guide dog training 
> program and some other disabvility services, consumers satisfaction is 
> the driving force. Until we see ourselves as consumers with all the 
> power that term conveys, we will continue to be treated as second-class citizens.
> 
> Fraternally yours,
> Marion Gwizdala
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Craig Heaps
> Sent: Friday, May 02, 2014 12:24 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] On Ownership
> 
> Michael:
> 
> I understand the points you're making, and certainly don't think it's 
> simply one way or the other.
> 
> However, when the school accepted me, I also accpted the school.  I 
> went to GDB knowing the ownership policy.  I took all the things they 
> gave me for free, knowing it came with the stiuplation that I would 
> not own the dog for at least a year, if ever.
> 
> I don't know of another situation other than service dogs where 
> someone hands over to you a highly trained, living, breathing being 
> for your benefit at no charge.  Then regularly comes to provide 
> extended instruction and guidance at my home or work place.  I find it 
> hard to complain about the conditions they put on that.
> 
> I believe the schools have every right to withhold ownership of the 
> dogs for however long they choose.  I do not expect them to be 
> infallible in their screening or training.  And if they feel they need 
> to retain ownership for a time as a check on thier own fallibility, I'm ok with that.
> 
> Perhaps I'm less sensitive to perceived paternalism.  My sense of 
> gratitude might have overwhelmed it.
> 
> Craig
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Michael Hingson" <info at michaelhingson.com>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" 
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, May 02, 2014 9:09 AM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] On Ownership
> 
> 
>> Craig,
>> 
>> I hear you, but the school did accept you and you accepted the school 
>> and its techniques.  You take a chance that all the processes and 
>> procedures of the school will work for you.  There is no guarantee in 
>> life.  We should be judged by the same criteria as others.
>> 
>> The Leader Dog example is as graphic as it gets.  The claim is, they 
>> said, that they changed their policy simply because school management 
>> said it saw an increase in dog obesity.  So why does such an increase 
>> justify how they treat dog ownership by the handler?  The fact is 
>> that it does not.
>> 
>> The schools always have recourse to remove a mistreated dog from an 
>> environment.  Animal control, the courts, and the law should apply 
>> here just as in any other case.  Why should schools have an advantage 
>> and an extra opportunity to intimidate?  Schools have misused a lack 
>> of ownership by handlers to intimidate them make no mistake.
>> 
>> No, not granting immediate ownership is paternalistic.  If the 
>> schools train properly, if they do a thorough job of assessing the 
>> incoming student and later the team performance during training, and 
>> if the school personnel is confident in its own abilities to evaluate 
>> and if the staff has faith in blind people then granting ownership 
>> immediately is a no brainer.
>> 
>> 
>> Best,
>> 
>> 
>> Michael Hingson
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Craig 
>> Heaps
>> Sent: Friday, May 02, 2014 08:49 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] On Ownership
>> 
>> I confess I see it differently.  The guide dogs schools have invested 
>> tens of thousands of dollars into breeding and training the dogs.  I 
>> don't know how the others work, but GDB provided free room and board 
>> for two weeks to me, trained me for free, and provided my dog for 
>> free for my use when I graduated.  So, while I have an obviours stake 
>> in the dog and my relationship with him (or her), the school has an 
>> incredible responsibility for the dog.
>> 
>> They accepted me on the basis of an applicaton and a home interview. 
>> While
>> I'm sure they did their due diligence, there's no way they could know 
>> my ultimate success or failure wiht a dog in that process plus the 
>> two weeks I spent with them for training.  If I should prove to be 
>> any one of a number of things --  incompetent, negligent, cruel, 
>> psychotic, neurotic, probiotic (sorry, I got caught up in the rythm 
>> of the thing)
>> -- what recourse would they have to rescue the dog from me?
>> 
>> GDB allows me to apply for owership after a year.  I'm a couple 
>> months away from that anniversary and I don't know what I'll do.  It 
>> really makes no difference to me.  I'm holding Chase's harness handle 
>> every day.  I buy his food and feed him.  I buy the plastic bags and 
>> pick up after him.  He sleeps next to my bed.  In real, practical 
>> terms, I don't see what difference it makes.
>> 
>> I tend to think of it as responsible rather than paternalistic on the 
>> part of the school.
>> 
>> Craig and Chase (who technically belongs to Guide Dogs for the Blind)
>> 
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Marion Gwizdala" <blind411 at verizon.net>
>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Friday, May 02, 2014 6:31 AM
>> Subject: [nagdu] On Ownership
>> 
>> 
>>> It is my opinion that the failure to grant ownership upon completion 
>>> of training is founded in the underlying belief that blind people 
>>> are incapable of caring for a dog and must prove their ability to do 
>>> so before they are afforded this fundamental right! No matter how it 
>>> is couched, such a policy is paternalistic!
>>> 
>>> Fraternally yours,
>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Ray
>>> Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2014 9:30 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Attention: New Leader Dog Ownership Policy
>>> 
>>> Well, it does have to do with ownership policy. The implemented it 
>>> because guide dogs were obese; they lowered it because blind 
>>> graduates were starting to do better because the obesity rate is 
>>> down. Do you think the obesity rate in dogs should have anything to 
>>> do with ownership? What I was saying is, if you have to wait one 
>>> minute for that reason, then it seems you are being treated as if 
>>> you are not capable of good judgment. My point was that people with 
>>> pets don't have to wait a year or two to see if their dogs are going 
>>> to be obese or not.
>>> 
>>> Cindy
>>> 
>>> On May 1, 2014, at 7:37 PM, Nicole Torcolini 
>>> <ntorcolini at wavecable.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> No, I don't think that ownership is the way to solve the problem, 
>>>> but, if you looked at the average life expectancy  of the breeds 
>>>> that are used as guide/service dogs for pet versus service/guide 
>>>> dog, you would probably find that, between a higher level of 
>>>> physical activity, more attention to weight, and more attention to 
>>>> health in general, service/guide dogs live longer than pets. And 
>>>> yes, being obese is bad for the health of a dog. Obesity is a 
>>>> slightly different problem in dogs than in humans. Humans know that 
>>>> we are going to get our next meal. Even though dogs have been 
>>>> domesticated for a long time, they still go on the instinct that 
>>>> they don't know when their next meal will be and therefore eat 
>>>> anything you put in front of them to the point of even making 
>>>> themselves sick. But, back to my original point, no,
>>> this is not something that has anything to do with an ownership policy.
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy 
>>>> Ray
>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2014 5:23 PM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Attention: New Leader Dog Ownership Policy
>>>> 
>>>> Think about it. How many pet dogs are obese? You must know that 
>>>> lots of them are because people over feed the dogs-table scraps, 
>>>> ice cream, whipped cream, whatever. So I ask you, how many pet dogs 
>>>> are
> obese?
>>>> Probably they suffer the same problem as people. Many of us are 
>>>> over fed,
>>> too.
>>>> 
>>>> Cindy
>>>> 
>>>> On May 1, 2014, at 7:12 PM, Nicole Torcolini 
>>>> <ntorcolini at wavecable.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> I don't quite understand what you meant. Are you saying that a lot 
>>>>> of pet dogs are obese or not many are obese?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Nicole
>>>>> 
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy 
>>>>> Ray
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2014 2:16 PM
>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: Attention: New Leader Dog Ownership 
>>>>> Policy
>>>>> 
>>>>> I think this is laughable. How many pet dogs are obese? Isn't it 
>>>>> as unhealthy for them? Their owners aren't required to wait two 
>>>>> years before applying for ownership of the dog.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Cindy Lou
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Apr 30, 2014, at 4:06 PM, Marion Gwizdala 
>>>>> <blind411 at verizon.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Dear All,
>>>>>> I would like to comment on this message as president of the 
>>>>>> National
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Association of Guide Dog Users. As this message states, Leader 
>>>>>> Dogs for the Blind changed its ownership policy around April of 
>>>>>> 2007. In July of that year, I presided at my first NAGDU annual 
>>>>>> meeting as Vice President of the organization. During our 
>>>>>> meetings, Leader was provided an opportunity to share an update 
>>>>>> with our membership, as has been our custom for quite some time.
>>>>>> One of the pieces of information Leader failed to mention was 
>>>>>> their change in ownership policy. In August of 2007, I called 
>>>>>> Leader and spoke with Rod Haneline about this apparent oversight.
>>>>>> At that time, Mr. Haneline advised me that the change in 
>>>>>> ownership policy was in response to the negative attention the 
>>>>>> case of Craig Miller who kicked his Leader Dog, Inky to death in 
>>>>>> a drunken rage had garnered. There are a number of challenges to 
>>>>>> this explanation. One major challenge is that, at the time of the 
>>>>>> incident, Mr. Miller had had his dog for more than the two years 
>>>>>> the new ownership policy provided for. The other major challenge 
>>>>>> is that there is no way to predict such behavior and no 
>>>>>> restriction of ownership would
>>>>> have made a difference.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> During last year's meeting, the question about their ownership
>>>>> policy
>>>>>> was posed to Leader again and this was when the issue of obesity 
>>>>>> was brought up. Though this sound like a reasonable explanation, 
>>>>>> no objective evidence that an obesity problem exists has ever 
>>>>>> been offered. Now the policy has been changed to one year because 
>>>>>> the obesity rates have gone down. Still, no objective evidence 
>>>>>> has been offered that there is a problem, in spite of the 
>>>>>> assertion that the rates are lower. Though I would like to 
>>>>>> believe those who tender such an argument have evidence to 
>>>>>> support their argument, as a professional who relies upon 
>>>>>> research to guide my practice,I am trained to be skeptical of 
>>>>>> unsupported claims. As of yet, I have seen no evidence of an 
>>>>>> obesity problem among guide dogs. If there was a problem and now 
>>>>>> the problem is less, let us see the
>>>>>> pre- post-study evidence! While we are at it, let's also see a 
>>>>>> correlative study of those programs who transfer ownership and 
>>>>>> those who do not so we can ascertain if there is a difference 
>>>>>> between the two groups. Here is an interesting statistic I would 
>>>>>> like to share with you to drive home the point: 87% of all 
>>>>>> statistics are made up on the spot! Of course, that's a cynical
>>>>> statement, but I think you get the point!
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Marion Gwizdala, President
>>>>>> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc.
>>>>>> National Federation of the Blind
>>>>>> (813) 626-2789
>>>>>> (888) 624-3841 (Hotline)
>>>>>> President at nagdu.org
>>>>>> http://www.nagdu.org
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> High expectations create unlimited potential for the blind!
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of 
>>>>>> William Vandervest
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2014 10:56 AM
>>>>>> To: the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] Fw: Attention: New Leader Dog Ownership Policy
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> There are none so blind as those who will not see
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> William and LD Lynard
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: Leader Dogs for the Blind
>>>>>> To: timelord09 at att.net
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2014 9:31 AM
>>>>>> Subject: Attention: New Leader Dog Ownership Policy
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Dear Graduate,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>   Leader Dogs for the Blind is announcing that effective 
>>>>>> immediately we are reducing our transfer of ownership policy from 
>>>>>> two years to one year
>>>>> for
>>>>>> our guide dog clients (with the exception of clients from Spain 
>>>>>> and
>>>>> Brazil,
>>>>>> who follow their local organization's procedures).
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>   The previous policy that required clients to apply for 
>>>>>> ownership
>>>>> after
>>>>>> working with their dog for two years was put in place in 2007 to 
>>>>>> address
>>>>> the
>>>>>> growing number of working Leader Dogs who were overweight or obese.
>>>>>> "The reason for the change is that over the past seven years, 
>>>>>> this problem has diminished as our clients have become more 
>>>>>> proactive at regulating their dogs' weight," said Will Henry, 
>>>>>> Leader Dog director of
>>>> client services.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>   The new policy grants automatic ownership, without the need to 
>>>>>> apply, to clients one year after their graduation date if they 
>>>>>> are in good
>>>>> standing
>>>>>> (not on probation, and with no complaints on file).
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>   Current clients (in good standing) who have had their Leader 
>>>>>> Dog longer than one year will receive automatic ownership as of 
>>>>>> May 1, 2014.
>>>>>> Clients (in good standing) who received their Leader Dog after 
>>>>>> May 1,
>>>>>> 2013 will receive automatic ownership one year after their 
>>>>>> graduation
>>>> date.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>   If you have questions about the ownership of your Leader Dog, 
>>>>>> please contact your client services coordinator at 888-777-5332.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>   Sincerely,
>>>>>>   Leader Dogs for the Blind
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> You are receiving this message because you have shared your email 
>>>>>> address with Leader Dogs for the Blind. To ensure that you 
>>>>>> continue receiving our emails, please add us to your address book 
>>>>>> or
> safe list.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Unsubscribe or manage your email preferences | Review our Privacy 
>>>>>> Policy
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Leader Dogs for the Blind, 1039 S. Rochester Rd., Rochester 
>>>>>> Hills, MI
>>>>> 48307
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>         Forward email
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>         This email was sent to timelord09 at att.net by 
>>>>>> webmaster at leaderdog.org |
>>>>>>         Update Profile/Email Address | Instant removal with 
>>>>>> SafeUnsubscribeT | Privacy Policy.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>         Leader Dogs for the Blind | 1039 S. Rochester Rd. | 
>>>>>> Rochester Hills | MI | 48309
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
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>>>>> 
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