[nagdu] On Ownership

Darla Rogers djrogers0628 at gmail.com
Mon May 5 18:00:57 UTC 2014 

Hi Chantel,

	What if he had proof--and I don't just mean 
AA--that he had gotten the help he needed and had remained sober for a length of time and had his anger under control.

	I think it was an awful thing, but this is just a story we hear about; I know of neglect cases due to drug use--which I won't speak further about because they are friends--but this individual didn't have that issue when the dog was given.
	Someone else took it upon themselves to call his school, and actually, as I recall, they treated this person very well.
	What is sad is this person thought **I** called the school; if I felt the need to do it, I sure as hell wouldn't do it behind someone's back.
Darla & Happy Huck


-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chantel
Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2014 4:02 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] On Ownership

I agree with you, Cindy. Kicking a dog to death in a drunken rage isn't right. I wouldn't give this man another dog, even if he begged and pleaded with me to do so.

Sent from my iPhone

> On May 3, 2014, at 4:58 PM, Cindy Ray <cindyray at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Well, I would not give such a person another dog whether I was a school that gave ownership or not, at least not for a period of time. If I was a breeder selling dogs to people and someone did that to one of my dogs, and then said person came to me wanting another dog, I would not sell him another dog, and blindness wouldn’t have anything to do with it. Anger management classes would not be the only kind of classes I would want him to do. 
> 
> Cindy Lou
> 
>> On May 3, 2014, at 2:49 PM, Darla Rogers <djrogers0628 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Marion,
>> ]
>>    I don't believe I am, as this information can be used as well as misused.
>>    Let me take, for example, the man who kicked his dog to death and had a felo0ny charge, I believe. Now he can't remain hidden because of the net, but what if he got sober and took anger management classes and psychotherapy; should those reports be enough?
>>    If he has done these things, he is probably beating himself up every day for what he did to his dog in a drunken rage.
>> Darla & Happy Huck
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Marion 
>> Gwizdala
>> Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2014 6:28 AM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] On Ownership
>> 
>>    I would also assert that a criminal background check should not be the only information used to arrive at a decision. The information gleaned should be used in perspective and other mitigating or aggravating information should be considered. I don't know if I am in favor of background checks of any kind. 
>> 
>> Fraternally yours,
>> Marion
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Star Gazer
>> Sent: Friday, May 02, 2014 8:53 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] On Ownership
>> 
>> I was only suggesting that a criminal background check is not the 
>> only check worth doing
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On May 2, 2014, at 6:36 PM, Cindy Ray <cindyray at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I’m kind of confused about criminal checks leading to financial ones. Maybe it is because I didn’t read Rebecca’s message?
>>> 
>>> Cindy
>>> 
>>>> On May 2, 2014, at 3:02 PM, Daryl Marie <crazymusician at shaw.ca> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> But then how far would those financial checks go?  Even though Jenny is my responsibility, I am married to someone who historically has had credit problems.  Would a guide dog school checking in to my financial background also breach his confidentiality and deny me the chance to train with a dog because of it?  Does that seem fair?
>>>> 
>>>> Daryl and Jenny (who is a little on edge today)
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: Star Gazer <pickrellrebecca at gmail.com>
>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users' 
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Fri, 02 May 2014 13:47:33 -0600 (MDT)
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] On Ownership
>>>> 
>>>>  Criminal background checks only "get" people who have found heir 
>>>> way into the criminal justice system. Many many people commit 
>>>> crimes and are not caught. And, an arrest means absolutely nothing.
>>>> I wonder if the schools also do finantial background checks as 
>>>> finantial stress can make people act in ways they normally wouldn't.
>>>> Not to say that a person under finantial stress would or wouldn't 
>>>> abuse a dog, just that criminal background checks aren't the only 
>>>> background checks in town, and may not give a full picture.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie J.
>>>> Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 1:49 PM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] On Ownership
>>>> 
>>>> Do any of the programs do criminal background checks?  What about 
>>>> the references?  Is a reference letter submitted or are these 
>>>> people called and asked questions?
>>>> 
>>>> I feel that the programs should use whatever means necessary to 
>>>> assess the suitability of a particular person to have a dog and 
>>>> then let them have the dog.  If there is some concern that the 
>>>> person won't properly take care of the dog, then that person shouldn't get one.  Once the person has the dog,
>>>> it's too late to prevent abuse or neglect.   Ownership or no ownership isn't
>>>> 
>>>> going to change the condition of the dog.
>>>> 
>>>> The only way that ownership can influence how people act toward 
>>>> their dog is if it's used as a threat.  If you don't do what we 
>>>> say, then we'll repossess your dog.  the thing with this approach 
>>>> is that it only works on folks who would have taken proper care of the dog regardless of the ownership policy.
>>>> People who do bad things are going to do bad things regardless of the rules.
>>>> 
>>>> An ownership policy isn't going to prevent abuse, any more than domestic 
>>>> abuse laws stop spouses from hitting each other.    People who don't commit 
>>>> abuse don't do it because of a law, they are non abusers because 
>>>> they feel it's the right way to act.
>>>> 
>>>> I'd really like to know what the actual reason is for the various 
>>>> schools ownership policies.  I've heard obesity, abuse, better 
>>>> follow up, being able to place the dog after retirement, better 
>>>> service and all other manner of nonsense.  It doesn't make any 
>>>> sense to me.  How does the ownership policy affect the school's 
>>>> ability to provide good service?  It smells like an excuse to me.
>>>> 
>>>> It would be interesting to see solid statistics comparing things 
>>>> like obesity rates, abuse, time between a follow up request and the 
>>>> provision of service and overall success rates between programs 
>>>> that retain ownership and those that don't.  My hunch is that there 
>>>> is no correlation between ownership and these items.  I think the 
>>>> better indicator is the quality of the applicant screening process, 
>>>> and the quality of the training at the program
>>>> 
>>>> Julie
>>>> 
>>>> 
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