[nagdu] Name was RE: My Opinions on Several Recent Topics

Thu May 8 21:41:03 UTC 2014

My bad, Rebecca, and I should know better, as I have corresponded with you
privately.
Blushing,
Darla & Happy Huck

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nicole Torcolini
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2014 11:28 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: [nagdu] Name was RE: My Opinions on Several Recent Topics

Her name is Rebecca. And, to that end, I understand if people choose  to let
their computers pick their email name or use another name besides their real
name for some good reason, but, if you do, I think that the list members
would appreciate it if the real name was written at the bottom of the
message so that we don't have to play guess who.

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Darla Rogers
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2014 8:58 AM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] My Opinions on Several Recent Topics

Dear Caroline,

	You'd be surprised at who reads what, and I believe most people just
want to avoid being harassed when they apply for a dog.
	I don't want to return ever to a particular school unless I learn
they have become problem solvers rather than people-blamers, and guide dog
schools do pass necessary and spurious information between themselves; this
should not be happening, and as I said previously, I have warned some
schools bout this very issue and that there needs to be more ethics
training.
Darla & Happy Huck

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Star Gazer
Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2014 11:54 AM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] My Opinions on Several Recent Topics

I'm jumping onto this post because it's the one I'm reading. 
I'm baffled at the hesitancy of giving details about the dog that didn't
work out. It seems like guide dogs are like experimental technology. There
is a lot we don't know about them. 
When people "don't want to give details" it's almost like they want to
declair guide dogs as operational v. experimental. I'm wondering why that
is, why the hesitancy on discussing when and why a situation doesn't work.
Lessons learned is done all the time on experimental technology. Bad things
tend to happen when technology is declaired operational when it shouldn't
be. The space shuttle is a prime example. 
Nicole's not wanting to give details about her friend (you don't have to
give the name of course) implies that if a dog is sent back for whatever
reason then it's a dirty secret that must be kept under wraps. And no,
privacy doesn't play into this. It's not like anybody reading the post is
going to say "Holy bleep, she's talking about my buddy Joe!" 

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nicole Torcolini
Sent: Monday, May 5, 2014 11:50 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: [nagdu] My Opinions on Several Recent Topics

This is probably going to be a slightly longer message as I am including
several topics.

All of this is my opinions, so feel free to throw it to the dogs if you
want.

I think that ownership does matter. It matters legally, and it gives you the
right to make decisions about your dog. What is the point in a school
retaining ownership? The dog is with you, so the school cannot be legally
responsible for the dog or what the dog does. I think that some schools
think that, if they retain ownership, then they can just drop out of the sky
and take the dog if they want. I think that some schools do not grant
immediate ownership because they want to be able to take the dog back if it
does not work out. Why? Because they are afraid that the person will still
try to work the retired dog? Because they are afraid that, if the person
gets another dog, the retired dog will not be happy about it? I don't know.
Whatever the excuse is, if a person has to stop working with a dog within a
year or whatever the time period is, the school should be able to work
things out with them through reasoning and concern for what is best for all
parties involved, not brute force based on what is on a contract.

I think that, from time to time, problems will arise with which people need
help. Sometimes, people notice these problems, and, sometimes, they don't
notice them. I do not think that it is unreasonable to school to want to
periodically check on their dogs. However, these visits should be by
schedule only. How often should they be? I don't know. Perhaps a little more
often in the beginning and then not so often as time goes on. Even if
someone does not think that they need the school to visit, it still might be
a good idea every once in a while in case there is something that the field
representative notices that somehow the handler missed. If there is a
problem, the school needs to actually work with the handler to solve it.
There are usually multiple ways to solve a problem, and, sometimes, a school
will insist on doing it a certain way, which may not be the best way to the
particular situation. Also, I think that, occasionally, schools have
unreasonable expectations about certain things. For these reasons, and the
fear of having the dog taken away, I think that some people are afraid to
ask for help. They don't ask when the problem is not bad and can be helped.
Then, the problem gets worse, and they finally tell the school or the school
gets wind of it through some other channel, and the person is in trouble for
not getting help sooner.

The only time that I think that a dog should be taken away without
discussion is if there is undisputable evidence of abuse/neglect to the
point that the life of the dog is in jeopardy. If there is abuse/neglect,
but the dog is not at quite as high of a risk, then the handler should to
given a chance to explain. If the handler is unwilling or unable to explain,
or does explain, but is unwilling to fix the problem, then the dog can be
taken away. For example, someone might decide to use a pinch collar on a dog
but inadvertently use it in an abusive way. 

When the school somehow finds out, they come to try to help by asking the
handler to either stop using the collar or let them or another training
source help learn how to use the collar correctly. The handler refuses to do
either.

I agree that some schools match people with dogs that don't work. 

One of my friends was matched with a dog that was too domineering. The dog
usually behaved, but, when the dog did not, my friend was not the type of
person to work with that level of disobedience. Another friend was given a
dog that the school had already tried to place a couple of times. I will not
give any other details besides that that friend ended up returning the dog
after the dog had problems-probably the same problems that had occurred with
previous handlers.

I agree for the most part that people should have good orientation and
mobility skills before getting a guide dog. The one that annoys me the most
is when people who are somewhat newly blind don't want to be seen with a
cane and think that a guide dog will solve all of their problems. I would
like to through another question out there, though. Must people are able to
learn orientation and mobility. However, some people, possibly for cognitive
reasons, cannot. What if someone is perfectly fine in all other aspects, but
just is not good at the whole where-am-I-and-which-way-do-I-go? What if
someone does not get out much but gets out enough? What if having a guide
dog actually helps a person because may become familiar with an area?

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