[nagdu] Scavenging WAS Re: A warning to people visiting NYC

Tami Jarvis tami at poodlemutt.com
Sat Nov 22 18:43:59 UTC 2014


Hey, Mary!

Glad your Felix is such a great worker. It seems like scavenging is a 
challenge for many, which makes sense with dogs. Some are more 
determined than others for sure.

I agree with you that if a piece of gear makes your dog cry, you should 
not use that piece of gear. I'm assuming you've checked it for proper 
fit and for anything that might be making it uncomfortable that can be 
repaired. I personally use head collars with my poodles who take to them 
easily, but that doesn't mean they work for every dog. Or for every handler.

Okay, so using positive reinforcement -- especially with food rewards -- 
for scavenging is counterintuitive until you manage to wrap your head 
around it. Then it makes perfect sense and it becomes easier to use 
those techniques. I've found that to be true of many things in 
training... Once I get it, it's so obvious! Before I get it, I have a 
harder time figuring it out.

Scavenging is self-rewarding, so to start, you need something more 
rewarding. What that will be depends on the dog. To turn around a 
dedicated scavenger, I'm in favor of smelly treats, like lamb lung or 
liver or, well, something really smelly. That way, you can get the dog's 
attention from a distance and lure it to you. Having all your pockets 
smell like something nummy for dogs is a real downside. /lol/ I'm just 
as happy that my puppy finds kibble rewarding enough. For now.

To start with scavenging and shredding around the house, I use "swap" 
with a lure. The dog can't keep the thing in its mouth while getting the 
treat, so drops the thing. Well, we have a dog that can do both, since 
is part chipmunk and would stuff the contraband in her cheek, convincing 
me she must have dropped it. /lol/ If your dog is that talented, good 
luck! For the dog that drops the one thing to take the lure, the next 
step is to have the dog do something else, like come to you (even if 
it's only a step at first) or heel into the next room, or do something 
playful. I find that ignoring the thing that was dropped completely is 
the best way to go. I'll wait until later, when the dog isn't watching 
to pick it up and put it away. If the dog wants to go back to it after 
the initial swap, I just play the leave it game and keep working leave 
it. It's a convenient time for it, since I know the tempting thing is 
there and can tell the dog is going back for it. I have also found that 
playing that game with a puppy is less aggravating than with an adult 
dog, probably because I don't expect the puppy to know better. /lol/

The real advantage of using lures, bribes and treats outrageously at 
first for shredding of household contraband is that the dog will begin 
to choose the swap quickly, which means the dog is not shredding. It may 
still pick up the item, but instead of dashing off furtively, it will 
let you know so that you can play the swap game or the leave it game. In 
my experience, the dog will also stick to the same items, so I know what 
to expect and can be more on top of things to get to the point the dog 
isn't picking it up at all.

I will quickly go from "swap" to "drop it" and "leave it," both of which 
come into play out in the world. So while the dog is still picking up 
contraband for you to bribe away from it, you can be reinforcing those 
commands like mad, which gives you an edge there.

I also work the "touch" command frequently throughout the day, 
especially with a trainee. That becomes a good tool in addressing 
sniffing/scavenging out and about. It's a good alternative behavior, 
since the dog can't sniff the ground while touching your hand, you know 
what the dog is doing while it is touching your hand, and the reward can 
be right there doing double duty as a lure. Then you can go forward. 
Eventually, you can skip the touch and just do "leave it forward."

Another way to reward is to allow sniffing at points of your choosing 
along the way. In other words, if the dog can pass x number of favorite 
sniff spots, then it can sniff at y sniff spot with your permission. Not 
everyone approves of this technique, but those who use it find it works, 
especially with dedicated sniffers. You can use a word or body language 
to communicate that the dog now has your permission to indulge until you 
are ready to move on again.

Those are starter techniques you can start with for the home behavior. 
I'm not sure if I've sort of explained using positive reinforcement or 
just over-complicated things. I like to start with concept and develop 
method from there, adapting to circumstances and individual dog. With 
three dogs in the house, each at different levels, and one very 
different from the other two, this means I am frequently confused or 
wondering why anything works at all. /lol/ But it does. I don't claim 
that Mitzi is perfect, but when I started taking Loki out along our same 
routes, I started to appreciate how great she is about passing by all 
sorts of things she could be sniffing and grabbing. We have a few sniff 
spots, so she indulges there as we get going, and a few more she favors 
when we are on a sniff 'n stroll out of harness. I had no idea how much 
litter and stuff there is along the sidewalks until now. And nobody ever 
picks it up. That was convenient with Loki, since I came to know where 
there was stuff for him to pick up so I could tell him to drop it. /lol/ 
Either he's gotten better by now, or someone picked up all the litter 
and it hasn't been replaced.

Now I will go read all the clear and concise posts and probably learn 
something. /smile/

Best of luck!

Tami



On 11/21/2014 04:46 PM, Mary Wurtzel via nagdu wrote:
> It has been a long time since I sent a post. This kind of goes along with
> this e-mail.
> I have had an ongoing challenge with Felix scavenging.
> He is four years old and also still gets things to tear up when loose around
> the house.  He lunges for food on the floor or under the table.  The field
> rep from
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> Gdf came.  He told me to use the buckle-high which may be the same  as the
> halty.  I didn't like this devices.
> Felix  was kind of crying when it was on.  I think the gentle leader is
> better, but it takes me forever to get it on.  I know I do need to practice
> with it.
> On the really great side of things about Felix is that he is a fantastic
> guide and balance dog.  He stops for anything he thinks might trip me, if it
> is an elevation or a drop.  I will not bore you with all the great things
> Felix does for me.  I sometimes think if I could do away with Felix's nose
> it would be fine, LOL.
> I am happy for any advice.  I have read what people have posted.  I guess I
> am not getting how positive reinforcement works hen  n  I don't know when
> Felix will lunge for something.
> I really love having a guide dog but do not want to give a bad name to guide
> dogdom.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sheila Leigland
> via nagdu
> Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2014 2:23 PM
> To: Daryl Marie; NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
> Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] A warning to people visiting NYC
>
> you got that right and the person that I was with didn't even tell me what
> tres was sniffing only that it was really nasty.
> On 11/20/2014 8:00 AM, Daryl Marie via nagdu wrote:
>> Tracy,
>> Thanks for the warning! I had planned on using the Halti the first couple
> of days, because Jenny is definitely a scavenger.  Perhaps it will be
> longer-term than both jenny and I like!
>> *sighs*
>>
>> Daryl
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Tracy Carcione via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 06:44:02 -0700 (MST)
>> Subject: [nagdu] A warning to people visiting NYC
>>
>> Just a word of warning to Daryl and anyone else coming to visit NYC.
>> The average New Yorker is a pig who throws anything he's done with
>> down on the sidewalk or into the gutter.  Food, tissues, whatever.  I
>> don't even like to think about the things I've pulled out of Krokus's
> mouth.
>> Tracy
>>
>>
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