[nagdu] when dogs are working?

[L Gwizdak]

I agree with these points!  Please first time guide dog users take Anne's 
words to heart.  She and I are long time handlers and know what can go wrong 
or other problems that can arise by letting our dogs loose in public places.

Lyn
"Asking who's the man and who's the woman in an LGBT relationship is like 
asking which chopstick is the fork" - Unknown
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ann Edie via nagdu" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
To: "'Abigail Bolling'" <violingirl30794 at gmail.com>; "'NAGDU Mailing 
List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2014 1:54 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] when dogs are working?


> Hi, Abby and Everyone,
>
> I agree with others who have stated that the dog does not have to be 
> wearing
> a harness in order to be considered a service dog under the ADA. However, 
> I
> also agree that the law does insist that the dog be on leash and under the
> control of the handler at all times, unless the dog's work requires that 
> it
> be off leash, which guide work obviously does not.  So, while it is
> perfectly all right for you to remove your dog's harness while in the 
> group
> "safe" room and let the dog rest and relax, in my opinion (and it seems 
> the
> law would imply this, also) you have no right under the law to allow your
> dog to roam about in a public place (which the room on the college campus
> is), no matter whether or not you believe that your dog is under your 
> verbal
> control at all times .  The law requires that places of public 
> accommodation
> modify their "no pets" policies in order to permit persons who have
> disabilities to gain access to the places and services they provide
> accompanied by their service animals.  The law does not require the
> management to modify other policies, such as to permit you to let your dog
> romp and play, seek attention from other persons, or interact with other
> service animals in the facility.
>
> How often have we read on these lists the complaints of guide dog handlers
> that their guide dogs have been attacked or interfered with by other 
> service
> dogs (or pets being fraudulently claimed as service dogs) while in places 
> of
> public accommodation?  No matter how well-behaved and friendly my service
> animal may be, and no matter how well-behaved and friendly all the other
> service dogs are (or how friendly their handlers think they are), I think
> you may be courting trouble by allowing your service dog to behave as if
> this room were your private dwelling. You never know when one animal may
> decide that it has been offended by something another animal has done and
> might retaliate before either you or the other animal's handler has time 
> to
> react to separate the two of them. I think the college has the right to
> protect itself from a lawsuit claiming that it permitted dogs to run loose
> within the facility and injure another animal or person. Secondly, no 
> matter
> whether all the other members of the group have agreed that it would be 
> fine
> for you to allow your dog to go free in the room, there may be some people
> who feel pressured by the group not to express that they might not really
> want to be licked by your dog or may not want the smell of dog on their 
> new
> clothes or may not really want dog hair on the suit that they are about to
> wear to a job interview or to defend their thesis or whatever. In other
> words, the right to be accompanied by a service animal does not mean that
> you have the right to use the space as if it were your private living
> quarters. You may be on a break, but your dog is still working. It is in
> that space only to afford you access to the college. Yes, it can be 
> resting;
> and yes, you can take off the harness without causing it to lose its 
> status
> as a service animal. But I think that's about as far as it goes.
>
> Also, I would advise you to be careful not to be too influenced by
> non-guide-dog-handlers' opinions about how you should treat your dog or 
> what
> you should or should not allow your dog to do. Many things that people 
> think
> you should let your dog do might not be in the best interest of the dog or
> the working team. For example, your friends think that since you are
> relaxing in the room, that your dog should be allowed to relax as well.
> Following this same line of thought, they might see you eating some nice
> snack, like ice cream or a burger, and they might think you are mean for 
> not
> sharing your snack with the dog, which is probably staring at the food in 
> a
> most piteous way, according to the well-meaning observer. Even if we 
> explain
> why we might do things differently than the other person might choose to 
> do
> with their pet dog, the person might still feel that we are being unfair,
> and might even try to win the dog's favor by sneaking it a morsel now and
> then when they think we're not paying attention. I think it is important 
> to
> maintain good discipline and keep the line clear between the working 
> service
> dog and a pet or group mascott.
>
> Personally, although I am a dog lover, I would not want to be confronted
> with someone else's loose guide dog in the student center of the college 
> or
> in the cafeteria of my school or place of business, even if the dog were
> friendly and "well behaved" by pet standards, especially if I were
> accompanied by my own service animal at the time. I remember reading of a
> situation where a large service dog grabbed and seriously injured a tiny
> service dog during a public event to which both service dog handlers were
> invited and where both dogs were "under the control of their handlers." 
> This
> situation was tragic, to say the least.
>
> Aside from all of the above, it seems to me that it would be very risky to
> permit the dog to behave as would a pet in this place, because the dog 
> might
> very easily get the idea that it is okay to seek attention and to greet
> other people and animals in other places and at other times when you may
> need the dog to be focused on its work. In my experience, guide dog 
> training
> programs instruct their students to provide their dogs with adequate rest,
> social time, and play time in their own homes or in other safe and
> non-public places, such as the fenced yard of their own home or a friend's
> home, or perhaps in a place where pet dogs are permitted, such as some 
> parks
> or dog parks, but not on the streets or in places of public accommodation
> where pets are not permitted. I think there is good reason for this 
> policy.
>
> I don't see any harm in situations such as that described by Julie J., 
> where
> she takes the harness and leash off of her guide dog in her office where 
> the
> dog has a resting place under the desk. This is presumably a confined 
> space
> which is either solely Julie's work space, or perhaps a space shared with
> only a couple of other people, and the dog does not get up and wander
> outside of the office or go and socialize with other people. Although I 
> have
> always kept my service animals on leash in these circumstances, I can see
> where this might be a personal choice, as long as the other employees or 
> the
> employer do not object. But I don't think the employer is obligated under
> the ADA to permit off-leash dogs within the facility, whether the dogs are
> service dogs or not, unless it is a service dog which needs to be 
> off-leash
> in order to perform the tasks for which it is trained.
>
> I also agree with Marion's assertion (from past discussions on this topic)
> that he does not have to have his guide dog in harness in order to be
> granted access to a beach where there is a "no dogs" policy.  But I 
> disagree
> with him, if I have understood his position correctly, that it is okay for
> him, once on the beach, to permit his guide dog to run loose, off leash, 
> to
> dig, swim, play, and perhaps interfere with the enjoyment of the facility 
> by
> other people.  If I think my service animal needs this type of exercise, I
> think I should take it to a place where pets are permitted, since the
> purpose of that trip would be to allow the animal to exercise and 
> recreate,
> rather than for me, as a person with a disability, to gain access to the
> beach to get exercise and recreation for myself, or with my family, or my
> friends. While I might, or might not, take the harness off my service 
> animal
> while we were on the beach in order to make it easier for the animal to 
> rest
> comfortably, I would keep it on leash. I would provide a shady, clean 
> place
> for my animal to rest and would either be holding the leash, or attach the
> leash to a stationary object such as a picnic table or a tree, or leave 
> the
> animal in the control of a member of my party whom I could trust, while I
> entered the water to swim or play. If, however, I wanted to take a nice,
> long walk along the beach, I would definitely do this guided by my guide
> animal in harness. Again, while I think it's fine to take a service dog to 
> a
> campground or hiking trail where pets are permitted and let the service 
> dog
> run off-leash, if you think the benefits outweigh the risks to your 
> animal,
> I do not think one should let a service animal run loose in such places if
> there is a "no pets" policy, while one uses some other mobility technique 
> to
> walk the trails or get around the campground, as some guide dog users have
> said they do, no matter how "in control" they think their dogs are. And I
> don't read anything in the ADA that would imply that the management of any
> such facility has to permit such behavior.  If we permit our service 
> animals
> to be off-leash in public places where pets are not permitted, I believe 
> we
> would be taking unfair advantage of the other patrons and of the business
> management and their ignorance of their rights under the ADA.
>
> The above is, as always, my considered opinion, and nothing more or less. 
> I
> apologize if I have misrepresented the views of any others who have
> participated in the discussion. There is certainly room for differing
> opinions and choices within the law and in real life circumstances.
>
> Thanks for the interesting question and for all the thoughtful replies.
>
> Best,
> Ann with Panda
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Abigail Bolling
> via nagdu
> Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2014 7:04 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: [nagdu] when dogs are working?
>
> hey all!
>
> So I recently started hanging out with a group of students called the
> rainbow alliance on campus.
> Being a student organization, we have a room in the student union which is
> considered a "safe space" where we can relax and be ourselves.
> h=The alliance has made it clear to me that if I am on break, then,
> obviously by decision but my dog should get some down time too. I agree
> completely. my dog is easy to control off leash and harness. They are
> completely comfortable with me taking my dog out of harness and all of the
> people who hang out in the room love dogs. There are at least 3 other 
> people
> with service dogs who frequent that room, so it is nothing new to have a 
> pup
> running around greeting people.
>
> Today, we had an advisor come in the room and tell us that our dogs are 
> not
> considered service animals if they are not in their full working gear.
> My question is what should I do about this situation?
> Should I fill out an incident report and have this advisor informed about
> the laws and regulations about service dogs, or is he correct?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Abby and Puppy Jada
>
> Abigail Bolling
> Wright State University: Social Work
>
> "Keep a smile on your face and  a song in your heart, and just let the 
> music
> play." (Julie Anderson-Diamond)
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