[nagdu] discrimination for service pups in training./my littlerant
Steven Johnson
blinddog3 at charter.net
Tue Sep 9 23:01:57 UTC 2014
However, if it is written in State law, it is therefore a violation of those statutes, and can be pursued from a legal standpoint. Check your states public accommodation law on how to file a complaint if you wish to pursue this.
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Barb breuer via nagdu
Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2014 11:14 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users; Nicole Torcolini; 'Valerie Gibson'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] discrimination for service pups in training./my littlerant
I am with you, this is not discrimination , it is doing the right thing. This is a baby, I thought puppies should not go out until they are potty trained and have their shots all dun.
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------ Original Message ------
From: Nicole Torcolini via nagdu
To: 'Valerie Gibson', 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Sent: September 8, 2014 at 7:50 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] discrimination for service pups in training./my littlerant
First, I would not necessarily call this discrimination. JMHO, you are kind
of pushing the limits on what is considered a dog in training if it has to
be that sheltered.
I have never trained a puppy, but there was a puppy raiser in the town in
which I grew up, so, even I did not get to experience all of it, I did get
to experience the different stages through which the pups in training went.
None of them went out and about before the were house broken. There was a
very brief time right after the puppy raiser got the puppy from the school
that people were allowed to hold and cuddle the puppy, but that did not last
very long.
I would not take a dog in training to a pet store, at least not for very
long. It is full of smells and distractions, so it is hard for the dog to
focus, especially at such a young age. Even with Lexia, I tend to leave her
home when I go to the pet store so that I don't have to be on top of her
every minute for smelling everything.
I second the be consistent part. There are certain things that Lexia is
allowed to do, but only when I say so, and not following the rules about
stopping when I say stop results in the activity stopping for a very long
time. I also agree about not using correction until the dog fully
understands. And, yes, dogs most certainly understand conditions. We had a
pet dog who was not allowed on the furniture at home. However, when we went
to a certain place for vacation, she was allowed on the furniture. She knew
and understood this, and would get on the furniture in the vacation place
without permission, but that was okay because she knew not to do it at home.
And, yes, do not tolerate anything, even if it is cute. You are working with
Goldens, not Border Collie mixes, so you should not have this problem, but,
with the pet dog that we had, if it was funny once and we laughed at it, the
dog was guaranteed to repeat it, and we had just created a very annoying
habit that was nearly impossible to get rid of.
Nicole and Lexia
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Valerie Gibson
via nagdu
Sent: Monday, September 08, 2014 4:15 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] discrimination for service pups in training./my
littlerant
Hi,
I've never worked with goldens, but from what i've seen from family members
who've had them, they are very trainable. so you should have no problem
there save for the typical puppy behavior.
What I would seriously encourage you to do is read up on puppy behavior and
your breed. I'm sure bookshare offers some books on caring for goldens, and
I'd recommend books on clicker training.
It's great you have a trainer coming, but a little extra homework on your
part couldn't hurt, and this way, you'll know what to expect as your pups
grow.
I highly doubt you'll be doing any guide work right now. What you're going
to focus on is socialization and basic puppy obedience. This isn't, as some
trainers would call it, specialized training, so it will be easy to find
books on obediance training. Given that there are so many training methods,
do some research to find a philosophy that you agree with. I won't say that
one philosophy is right or wrong. I'm more of a trainer who mantains a
balance between posative training and correction. but I know some trainers
who will never, ever, use correction. It's all a matter of what the trainer
and you believe.
Understand too that two different dogs may need to be trained two different
ways.
If it helps, you can think of your puppies as children in kindergarden. I
don't like humanizing dogs like this, but sometimes it helps to see where
puppise are in their learning.
One thing you also might want to do is use the training tools you're given
by your trainer as a way for your puppies to work.
For example, "sit" might be one of the first things you learn. When your
trainer has taught you to teach your dog to sit, have your puppies sit
before meals, or sit in order to receive affection. This way, you're
training them all through out the day, and they are constantly learning.
You're also telling your puppies that you're in charge of their food, their
leasure activities and any affection they will receive and they must work
for it. This is a language your puppies understand. In the dog world,
nothing is free. With your puppies seeing you as their provider for
everything, they will aim to please you. When you start serious training,
your puppies will know that there are things you expect of them, and there
are things they expect of you as well. They expect love, guidance and
protection in return for obediance.
One last thing I want to try to hammer home is that you need to be
consistant in everything. If it's not okay for puppy to get on the sofa,
don't allow it ever. If it's only okay for puppy to get on sofa when
invited, don't ever allow puppy to jump the furniture unless you've called
him/her. If this means you have to stop what you're doing to issue a
distraction, do so. I say "distraction" because I do not believe in
correctional methods until I'm 100% sure a puppy know a command.
Zion's not allowed in my room unless I invite him in. Dispite what some
people think, dogs do understand conditions. SOme people think that dogs
either think it's okay to jump on sofas or not, that you should teach them
one or the other, but if a dog understands that this sofa is mine, this room
is mine, this bed is mine, etc, he's less apt to try to take over.
Sometimes, I've had to stop what i'm doing and move Zion out of my room when
he opens my bedroom door and goes in without my permission. If it means
that i have to steer him away from my room 5 times in a row so he gets the
point, that's what I do. I don't think you'll have to worry about this
because i imagine your puppies are very young, and I highly advise you to
not let them have the run of your house, ntil they prove polite in the space
given to them now.
My point is be consistant in training. know what you expect from the, and
don't put up with anything less, no matter how cute it is at the time.
I know this sounds like you're being a hard a**, but dogs please those they
respect, and dogs, not only need, but want a leader who will offer them such
structure.
I'll give one example of something i'm working with Zion on right now. When
he's in his kennel, and he starts wining, and i know he doesn't have to go
out, or if he's in his kennel and I just got home and he's barking and
carrying on, he's ignored completely, almost to the point of shunned. I
don't talk to him. I make sure when I have to go near him, I don't look in
his direction. He gets nothing from me.
Some could argue, "but he's excited to see you", and that's true, but
howling and barking is not polite in my pack so it's not something i
tolerate.
When Zion is settles down or has given up on my attention, then I will let
him out.
Again, I doubt this is something you ned to worry about rightnow, but those
are just a few of my puppy tips.
Again, please please please please, and did I say, Please, read up on
goldens and doggie life stages.
Hope this helps, and again, I didn't want to make you feel like an idiot
earlier. I just come on a little strongwhen i feel passionately about
something. :)
On Sep 8, 2014, at 4:44 PM, Jessica Roberts <kittycatforever0214 at gmail.com>
wrote:
> Oh yeah, the training thing we have a lady who will come once a week
> for an hour to work with us 1 on 2 since we have 2 pups and will
> probably do a half hour with each.
> I htink we're going to start with walks at a outside mall near here,
> to our mailbox which is a nice walk away, up to the apartment office,
> to the daycare which is where my son goes, stuff like that. Eventually
> we'll build up to petco, church, and school.
> They seem like very adaptable puppies, and so I think it'll go well.
> I've never raised pups before, so forgive me if my first message came
> across as looking like an idiot.
> My thinking was merely to expose to them to as much as I could, but I
> see now it has to be done over time.
> So we'll do stuff with the trainer, go to my moms house, Derek's
> family, both of those houses have friendly dogs. And then once we've
> got all our shots, we'll go more places.
> Its hard to believe that these 12 pound fur balls will turn into 70
> pound full grown golden retrievers, haha.
> My college has said they are fine with them coming on campus once they
> are house broken. I'm crate training and I've read that should happen
> around 16 weeks to 5 months, we're at 10 weeks now and they are doing
> really well so far.
> Jessica
>
> On 9/8/14, Valerie Gibson via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> Hi
>>
>> I'm so glad you've made arrangements for your puppy. :)
>>
>> I think it really depends on the dog. As you work with the dog,
>> oyu'll know the dog better, and you'll know when the dog will be able
>> to be taken to class.
>> Take it one step at a time. Get the pup out and about when you have
>> fre time, and socialize the puppy to other friendly people and friendly
dogs.
>> Get the dog in basic obediance classes or work one on one with a
>> trainer if you don't know how to tain yourself. I like puppy classes
>> during the early stages because it does get the dogs used to strange
>> people, dogs, sights, smells, etc. I am opposed to group puppy
>> training classes where your puppy is made to work for an hour on
>> commands. To me, it's too long of a training session, and I'd prefer
>> to set my puppy up for success when first training him on
>> something...this isnt' easy to do when you've got a bunch of other
puppies around. But, to each his own.
>>
>> Get your puppy used to you, and most importantly, what you expect of
>> him/her. This is important.
>>
>> For Zion, I accomplished this by keeping him in his kennel when we
>> weren't training or playing. Gradually he got to spend more and more
>> time outside of the kennel, but as he gained more privledges inside
>> the home, he gained more structure outside of the home. Whereas once
>> people could pet him pretty much all of the time, now I decided when
>> he could be petted, and I used what obedience commands he'd learned as
stipulation for pets.
>>
>> Once he is well mannered around strangers, then you can start
>> thinking of more structured places to take him.
>>
>> Hope this helps. :)
>>
>>
>> On Sep 8, 2014, at 4:25 PM, Jessica Roberts
>> <kittycatforever0214 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I had actually looked into everything before we got the pups, but
>>> then this lady came out at me today. I had asked her before and it
>>> was okay.
>>> I've made arrangements for someoen to come let pups out the 2 days a
>>> week we're gone longer than they can hold there bladders for now.
>>> What age do you guys think is appropriate to take them to the
>>> college say, for an hour and a half class or so?
>>> Its not a showing off thing at all, but that I want to do this right
>>> and I want to expose the pups to as much as I can.
>>> Jessica
>>>
>>> On 9/8/14, Valerie Gibson via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> I'm in agreement here. While I do believe there are some places
>>>> your puppy should go to get acustomed to the world, most of those
>>>> places are outside.
>>>> For example, I took Zion onto the train when he was around 10 weeks.
>>>> owever
>>>> we never went on the train if he showed any signs of fear.
>>>> Sometimes, we'd just sit near the train, and he would watch people
>>>> getting on and off of the train. We went into places like walmart
>>>> together as well when he was a young pup. However I always made
>>>> sure that the trips were short enough to provide a potty break
>>>> before and after. Because he was still very young, I was always
>>>> willing to just allow him to sleep in his kennel while i went out
>>>> to run around.
>>>>
>>>> If your dog is not potty trained, I'm assuming it's around 3 months.
>>>> It's
>>>> good that you're thinking about socialization, but taking the pup
>>>> to a school is too much. Zion goes to school with me now, and
>>>> there are times when he gets restless. That is due to the fact
>>>> that he's ten months old and still a puppy, but slowly, he's
>>>> getting better at calming down. Another thing you want to consider
>>>> is that if you take the dog to a college campus, everyone's going
>>>> to want to pet the dog. This is good for the puppy, but he might
>>>> come to associate the college campus with play and free pets. I
>>>> recommend taking him to campus on a day where you don't have class
>>>> and can stroll aroud. It's what I did when Zion was four months.
>>>> I don't mean to sound harsh, but it seems to me that you just want
>>>> to show off your new puppy. Him/her being a service dog in training
>>>> offers you the perk of being able to take it around to places.
>>>>
>>>> There's nothing wrong with wanting to do this, but there's a time
>>>> and place to do it right now. On a time where you don't
>>>> necessarily get free time is not one.
>>>>
>>>> Truly I understand your eagerness to show off your friend. There
>>>> were times I had to remind myself that Zion was still X months old
>>>> and wasn't ready for something. It didn't help that he was so big.
>>>>
>>>> My second pet peeve about this is: Why are you training a dog if
>>>> you don't have the time? Or, why not clear it with your disability
>>>> center before you got puppy, that way you'd know, okay, it may not
>>>> be able to come with me to class so I need to plan my class
>>>> schedule around it's schedule, or make arangements for it's care
>>>> while I am away?
>>>>
>>>> You don't need to answer these on list or even in an email to me.
>>>> Part of this is just my venting.
>>>>
>>>> I get that everyone has their own circumstances, but the dog didn't
>>>> ask to be placed in your life, especially if it's a puppy you're
>>>> owner training.
>>>>
>>>> okay, now this is just my venting, not to/about anyone in particular.
>>>>
>>>> This goes for pets too. If you can't take care of your dog, at any
>>>> time, for any reason, make arrangements for it's care, wether
>>>> that's for a dog walker to come by, taking it to a daycare, leaving
>>>> it with a friend, etc. If you can't do that, or can't afford it,
>>>> you don't need to be training a dog.
>>>>
>>>> If something comes up, after you've got the puppy, and it's nothing
>>>> that you could have prevented before you got the puppy, that's a
>>>> little different.
>>>>
>>>> As a dog trainer you need to understand life stages of dogs, what
>>>> hurtles you'll need to jump at what stage, and various ways to
>>>> overcome those hurtles. For example, if your dog is chewing
>>>> everything in sight and it's 5 months old, you should know that
>>>> it's teeth, and this shall last roughly until the dogs 7 months
>>>> old. If your dog, who once was an obedient puppy, suddenly decides
>>>> it's not going to listen to anything yo say, and it's a year old,
>>>> that'a adolescence and understand that you might have to start back
>>>> at square one, but that this too shall pass. You should understand
>>>> breed in that not all dogs train or work the same. What was your
>>>> dog originally bred for? How can you use this in your training?
>>>> Akitas were bred for hunting, so when we come across obstacles that
>>>> Zion must walk around, it's better for him and me, if i allow him
>>>> to find a way around it on his own.
>>>>
>>>> In order to train service dogs properly, in my oppinion, you need
>>>> to understand basic dog behavior. I'd even go so far as to say, in
>>>> order to work with a service dog, you need to understand dog
>>>> behavior, but I don't want to start a holy war over it lol
>>>>
>>>> I can't tell you the people i've run into who think that just
>>>> because their dog is a guide dog it shouldn't have the same bad
>>>> habbits a pet dog might have.
>>>>
>>>> Maybe i'm just preaching to the choir as it were, and I don't mean
>>>> to make it sound as if the owner/trainers on here just don't have
>>>> common sense, because I'm sure that those of you who've worked (not
>>>> just owned) but worked with many dogs know this.
>>>>
>>>> I just get baffled at people (and I don't just mean those on this
>>>> list) who want to train a dog for any ort of service work and know
>>>> hardly anything about your general dog behavior. It's like they
>>>> see service dog training and regular obedience training as
>>>> separate, and they're not. they all build on one another. Then
>>>> there's your typical person who wants to train a "service dog" just
>>>> so their pet can go into places with them.
>>>>
>>>> Okay, i'm done with my ranting.
>>>>
>>>> Understand that i'm not pointing anyone out here. I just want
>>>> those who are starting out on owner training to understand that
>>>> there's more to it, but i don't think anyone can really understand
>>>> that until they've worked with dogs.
>>>>
>>>> Zion is my first service dog that i've trained, but I've trained
>>>> other dogs.
>>>> In fact, by the end of next year I hope to have a certificate by
>>>> the certification counsel of professional dog trainers, which will
>>>> certify me in dog training.
>>>>
>>>> PS: sorry if I came across as a bit blunt or whatever. sugar
>>>> coating things has never been my strong point, so I can come across
>>>> as more bitchy than i intend. :)
>>>>
>>>> On Sep 8, 2014, at 1:59 PM, The Pawpower Pack via nagdu
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I'm not familiar with the Florida law, but if Florida gives
>>>>> trainers with pups the same rights and responsibilities as trained
>>>>> dogs, then the ADA says that handlers of service dogs can be asked
>>>>> to remove the dog if it is not toilet trained and or if it is
>>>>> causing a disturbance, like whining or barking.
>>>>> As a trainer, I do not take dogs into places inside until the dog
>>>>> has proven, over a period of weeks, that it is toilet trained.
>>>>> Also that it can be quiet for long periods of time. I do this by
>>>>> accessing many dog friendly outdoor spaces.
>>>>> I also do not think that a puppy is ready for a whole day at school.
>>>>> This
>>>>> is a very young dog, it's only job right now is to be a young dog
>>>>> and explore the world.
>>>>> I wish you the best.
>>>>>
>>>>> Rox and the kitchen Bitches:
>>>>> Mill'E, Laveau, Soleil
>>>>> Pawpower4me at gmail.com
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sep 8, 2014, at 1:50 PM, Jessica Roberts via nagdu
>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>> I sent an email today to the director of the office for students
>>>>>> with disabilities for one of the campuses for which I'm attending
>>>>>> next week.
>>>>>> I obviously want to take my puppy with me because of the exposure
>>>>>> to things, and because its a long time to leave a puppy alone.
>>>>>> I got an email back saying that I could not bring the puppy until
>>>>>> its house broken, because they don't want it having accidents,
>>>>>> whining, or disrupting classes.
>>>>>> My plan was to have puppy in a wheeled carrier for a few weeks
>>>>>> anyway because of house breaking stuff, and also because puppy
>>>>>> has not had all her shots so she'd be safe, too.
>>>>>> She then informed me she'd let her boss contact the colleges
>>>>>> lawyer to get educated about service dogs in training.
>>>>>> Florida Statute 413.08 states that service dogs in training have
>>>>>> the same rights as fully trained guide dogs. Am I right to push
>>>>>> this or should I leave puppy home crated until they think its
appropriate?
>>>>>> I don't wanna do the second because of all the socialization
>>>>>> things that'd be missed.
>>>>>> The puppy is fine in a crate and I'm sure will be fine in the
>>>>>> carrier too, the plan was to put her in there with a puppy
>>>>>> nylabone, and to take her out for cuddle and potty time between
classes and such.
>>>>>> Thoughts, suggestions, help would be greatly appreciated.
>>>>>> Jessica
>>>>>>
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>>>>>
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