[nagdu] Fake Service Dogs

Tue Aug 4 03:56:11 UTC 2015

Raven,

Actually many of the dogs you depicted are service dogs under the law. The issue is that the dog must be trained to perform a specific task as described by the ADA rules and regulations. You say, " Service dogs have done wonders for people with autism, diabetes, epilepsy, PTSD, and other disabilities". All those dogs have been trained to perform specific tasks and their handlers are no more required to have a doctor's note than am I or you as blind people. I urge you to read up on what these dogs are trained to do. Their work is fascinating and they all are covered by the ADA as service dogs, not emotional support dogs which do require documentation from a doctor. 

Best Regards,

Michael Hingson

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Raven Tolliver via nagdu
Sent: Monday, August 03, 2015 8:10 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Raven Tolliver <ravend729 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fake Service Dogs

Laws for or against IDs will not make a difference. Heck, we have laws that don't require us to show ID, and think of how many people ask to see some ID. We already have laws protecting us from discrimination based on the fact that we're accessing a business or service with a dog by our side. And still, how many times have any of us been rejected, refused, and discriminated against? The laws are garbage if nobody knows them, nobody obeys them, and nobody enforces them.
Besides, it's much easier to establish educational programs, and create educational materials that can be distributed than it is to make a proposition for a law to be on the books and fuss with voting it into being. Why don't we just focus on educating the public on the laws we already have? More education, less regulation. Don't waste energy on creating more laws that the public will ignore and circumvent.

Also, I disagree with the opinion that having fewer dogs in public will solve the problem. There are plenty of communities where dogs are welcome in public in various businesses and on public transport.
People in these communities are responsible individuals who know the importance of having a hygienic, well-behaved animal. This is because they will stand out for having a poorly groomed or ill-behaved pet, and they do not want to ruin privileges for anyone else with a pet in public. In these communities, people take responsibility to leave ill-behaved animals behind until the animal is trained enough to behave in public, or they take proper precautions to prevent mishaps with their animals.
For instance, I live near a mall that welcomes dogs. This is awesome.
Lots of people come with their dogs, big and small, and people also know their dogs enough to allow or forbid dog-to-dog interaction, and keep their dogs well-behaved around other dogs and in the businesses.
Dogs in these stores are not jumping up on shelves, barking consistently, relieving indoors, or being disruptive to the business or other customers. People understand how much of a privilege it is to bring their dogs into businesses, so they don't take it for granted.

My issue with the law is that it assumes we are fools who cannot make choices of our own. By forbidding dogs, the law assumes we are idiots who cannot turn out well-trained animals who can behave and display impulse control in public, or that we cannot control our animals in public. It's the same for breed selective legislation. It assumes that people with a certain breed are incapable of training up well-behaved dogs. It fails to simply require that people have well-behaved animals, and removes much responsibility from citizens. The law should not have to think for us.

Saying that service dogs should only be for those with physical disabilities is making an offensive and ill-informed statement.
Service dogs have done wonders for people with autism, diabetes, epilepsy, PTSD, and other disabilities that are not apparent and can only be proven with a doctor's note. Everybody with a disability and a service animal shouldn't be required to carry a doctor's note or even prove anything. Instead, they should be required to keep their animals clean and under control, and businesses should know what their rights are pertaining to persons with disabilities and service dogs. Stop focusing on the problem, and focus on the solution. People will fake disabilities and bring in their supposed service dogs all they want.
That's fine. But businesses should know that patrons can be kicked out if their dog gets out of hand.
--
Raven
Founder of 1AM Editing & Research
www.1am-editing.com

You are valuable because of your potential, not because of what you have or what you do.

Naturally-reared guide dogs
https://groups.google.com/d/forum/nrguidedogs

On 8/3/15, Buddy Brannan via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> Your argument falls apart when someone's program trained dog attacks. 
> What then? The damage is already done, and even if the program is 
> called, again, so what? The damage is already done. Do we then ban 
> dogs from that program on the one bad example? I guarantee you that 
> every school has graduated a team wherein the dog has attacked, 
> lunged, bitten, slobbered on the meat counter, or what have you. Do we 
> then ban all dogs from all programs because some dogs from all programs misbehave?
>
> Sure. As for ID's, anyone can call the number on the card to see if 
> the person with the card is a graduate. Proving what? If my number is 
> on the card as an owner trainer, I'm sure I'll be happy to confirm 
> that yes, I graduated myself from my program. If it's Joe's Fake ID 
> And Tattoo Emporium, I'm sure Joe would be happy to say that yes, he 
> issued a credential to so and so. Proving, again, what exactly?
>
> I, for one, agree with Julie. Erring on the side of freedom is preferable.
> If a service dog can help someone, I don't care what the disability 
> is. It isn't my place to say "you deserve" and "You do not", and thank 
> God for that. The law is enough, or at least, almost enough, as it 
> stands. That some people are not exercising their rights is a problem, 
> but it isn't a problem that will be solved by more laws. I'd like a 
> law with real teeth, and real penalties, for the impersonation of a 
> person with a disability, under which such fakers can be prosecuted. I 
> think Florida has a good start on this sort of thing.
>
> Do I want to go to the good old days where only physical disabilities 
> were recognized as in need of service dogs? In cruder terms, "I got 
> mine, so screw you"? No, I don't. If only because laws were 
> inconsistent from one state to another, and many of those didn't 
> recognize owner trainers in any meaningful way. Many state laws 
> required that the dog come from a recognized program, which left out 
> owner trainers. That one could get away with it because most people 
> don't know better isn't the same as having legal protection. No thanks.
>
> --
> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
> Phone: 814-860-3194
> Mobile: 814-431-0962
> Email: buddy at brannan.name
>
>
>
>
>> On Aug 3, 2015, at 9:29 PM, Vivianna via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>
>> I fear that this is what will cause us all to have to show some sort 
>> of certification in the future.
>> it won’t be to long before someone gets bit by one of these fake 
>> service dogs.
>> or, for a guide dog get attacked by one and end up having to be retired.
>> it will have to go one way or the other.  either, all pets will be 
>> allowed everywhere or, only certified service dogs will be allowed.
>> a couple weeks ago, a friend of mine told me about a situation in the 
>> office building where she works.  she does not have a dog but, 
>> several folks in the building have various types of service dogs.  
>> this man had a mastiff and was bringing it around telling folks that 
>> he was training it for his PTSD.  the dog was really misbehaved and, 
>> sure enough, within a week, it had attacked one of the other service 
>> dogs.  the man was told that he could not bring it to work.
>> yes, i know that folks can just make up a fake identification card 
>> and present it when asked.  but, businesses can also call the number 
>> on the card and see if the person is truly a graduate of that school.
>> i really hate that this has to happen but, people are really abusing 
>> the rules and, something has to give.
>> personally, i’d rather see less dogs in public.
>>
>> Vivianna
>>
>>> On Aug 3, 2015, at 7:58 PM, Tami Jarvis via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Also, I think guide dog users are assumed to know more about the 
>>> law, which is not always true. But I've ended up in the role of 
>>> "resident expert" in the city as well as here in the small town. If 
>>> business owners or people actually making a determination whether to 
>>> allow a certain handler to be accompanied by a certain dog, then 
>>> I'll tell them the law as best I can and refer them to resources 
>>> where they can find out more for themselves. If it's just some busy 
>>> body asking me about a third party, I give them shorter shrift, 
>>> though I do tell the basics of the law. The handler must be 
>>> disabled, the dog must be trained to do work related to the 
>>> disability, the person's disability status is none of my business 
>>> any more than it is yours... If the questioner mentions specific 
>>> behavior, I can discuss that... Doesn't mean it's not a real service 
>>> dog, whether it should be doing whatever it is or not. Sometimes 
>>> they're so vague about it all that I can't help but think they're 
>>> just being nosey to be nosey, which I find a little irritating. I 
>>> also tend to assume that these third party reports are not terribly accurate, though I can't be sure, either way, since I'm not there. Oh, well.
>>>
>>> I do think it's important to be informed of the law, not the myths, 
>>> especially if you are one of those approachable people who will be 
>>> asked and asked again. If businesses know that they have some rights 
>>> and where to find information about what to do about handlers of 
>>> problem dogs, I think it's all to the good. If they still choose to 
>>> do nothing about a handler with an ill-behaved flea bag... Well, it's their business.
>>>
>>> Tami
>>>
>>> On 08/03/2015 04:00 PM, larry d keeler via nagdu wrote:
>>>> I get asked a lot as well even though I live in a slightly larger town.
>>>> This
>>>> is because I do community work as well as control my dog. And, am a 
>>>> approachable person, I think!
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Miranda 
>>>> Morse via nagdu
>>>> Sent: Monday, August 03, 2015 6:46 PM
>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>> Cc: Miranda Morse
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fake Service Dogs
>>>>
>>>> They are asking me because I have a service animal and they do not 
>>>> know where to turn for advice. We take for granted sometimes that 
>>>> everyone knows where to find the answers to questions like this. 
>>>> The people who approached me where asking on behalf of business 
>>>> owners in the area. I live in a small town so this is not such a 
>>>> standard thing and some people are not as approachable as others.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Star 
>>>> Gazer via nagdu
>>>> Sent: Monday, August 03, 2015 4:58 PM
>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>> Cc: Star Gazer
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fake Service Dogs
>>>>
>>>> 				I wouldn't either. Honestly, this sounds like a cat fight to 
>>>> me.
>>>> Why Miranda are you being contacted by "other people" about this woman?
>>>> I'd
>>>> just tell these people "She is an adult, you can approach her the 
>>>> way you did me" and refuse to engage in further conversation on 
>>>> that topic.
>>>> Frankly, I'm disturbed that you haven't done so already.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie J. 
>>>> via nagdu
>>>> Sent: Monday, August 3, 2015 5:15 PM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users 
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Cc: Julie J. <julielj at neb.rr.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fake Service Dogs
>>>>
>>>> If it were me, I'd go with Michael's advice.  Help the businesses 
>>>> to understand that they can ask if the dog is needed because of a 
>>>> disability and what task/s the dog does.  If she can't answer those 
>>>> questions with a yes and something that she had to have trained the 
>>>> dog to do, then she can be refused entry.  I wouldn't get into any 
>>>> sort of disability evaluation.
>>>> If she says she has a disability, then she does, unless a judge 
>>>> finds otherwise.  If the dog isn't behaved, then she can be asked 
>>>> to remove it.
>>>> Licking, interacting with other customers or their meal, poor 
>>>> grooming to the point of being a health hazard are all grounds for 
>>>> the dog to leave, in my humble opinion anyway.
>>>>
>>>> I think all you can really do is to help the businesses understand 
>>>> their rights.  It might help to print out that recent FAQ that the 
>>>> DOJ just put out.  Business owners like to see stuff in print from 
>>>> an official source.  I think it helps them accept it as legitimate 
>>>> and feel more confident in following through.
>>>>
>>>> There is a lady here, in my town, who has a dog for her psychiatric 
>>>> condition.  I've run across her twice.  the first time in a 
>>>> restaurant, where the dog was standing at the end of it's leash in 
>>>> the middle of the aisle.  the second time was just a few weeks ago 
>>>> in Wal-Mart.  I had Monty with me.  Apparently her dog was at the 
>>>> end of his leash, trying for all he was worth to get to Monty.  I 
>>>> didn't realize there was another dog, until my
>>>>
>>>> son told me in the next aisle.   We went on about our shopping and
>>>> didn't
>>>> encounter her in the store again.  I suspect she was making an 
>>>> effort to keep her dog away.  Personally, I'm not enthused with her 
>>>> dog's behavior, but neither do I think it's so horrendous that she 
>>>> should be asked to leave.
>>>>
>>>> My dogs aren't perfect and I'd hope that I'd get the same sort of 
>>>> compassion.
>>>>
>>>> Julie
>>>> Courage to Dare: A Blind Woman's Quest to Train her Own Guide Dog 
>>>> is now available! Get the book here:
>>>> http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00QXZSMOC
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Miranda Morse via nagdu
>>>> Sent: Monday, August 03, 2015 3:45 PM
>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>> Cc: Miranda Morse
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fake Service Dogs
>>>>
>>>> The woman says that she trained the dog herself and many people who 
>>>> know her claim that the dog is not a service animal. Many are even 
>>>> skeptical about whether she has PTSD. Needless to say this woman's 
>>>> reputation and past is not the most desirable.
>>>> The dog barks in public, licks people's glasses, begs for food and 
>>>> licks merchandise in stores. The dog also smells and has fleas or 
>>>> some type of allergy that makes him scratch constantly.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of larry d 
>>>> keeler via nagdu
>>>> Sent: Monday, August 03, 2015 3:35 PM
>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>> Cc: larry d keeler
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fake Service Dogs
>>>>
>>>> What I have observed is that yes, it probably is a service dog. 
>>>> Having said that however, I have met lots of people with ptsd who 
>>>> for some reason don't require the dogs to behave!
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Miranda 
>>>> Morse via nagdu
>>>> Sent: Monday, August 03, 2015 4:18 PM
>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>> Cc: Miranda Morse
>>>> Subject: [nagdu] Fake Service Dogs
>>>>
>>>> Hello, In the last week I have been approached by two different 
>>>> individuals at different times about a woman in town who has PTSD 
>>>> and has a service dog.
>>>> Their claims are that it is a fake service animal because of the 
>>>> way it acts in public. It is a great dane and I have seen it in 
>>>> public before and I would tend to agree.
>>>>
>>>> I would appreciate any suggestions on how to address this matter?
>>>>
>>>> Miranda
>>>>
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